Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014

Baroness Smith of Basildon Excerpts

Thursday 19th June 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his very helpful and detailed introduction of the order. Indeed, it was so detailed that I think he read almost verbatim the entire Explanatory Memorandum in terms of the details of the groups concerned. I agree absolutely with his analysis of the unpleasantness, nastiness and danger of these groups.

However, my reason for speaking is that I have never quite understood the purpose of proscribing organisations in this way. First, the organisations concerned have a capacity to change their names and identities with remarkable rapidity and ease. Does proscription mean that, if any of those organisations change their names or identities, a new proscription order must be found?

Secondly, what additional and valuable powers does the order actually give over the individuals who may be covered by such proscription? For example, in the various cases that the Minister cited, he talked about individuals who have fought as part of those groups overseas and might be returning to this country. Are they not therefore covered by other offences under the Terrorism Act, which means that, in fact, the key issue would be their combatant status elsewhere, engaging in and promoting acts of terrorism elsewhere?

Then there is the question of what the order actually covers. It would now be a criminal offence for a person to belong to those organisations. Which of them have an explicit membership? Surely the issue here is one of association rather than membership. I cannot believe that the extremely nasty Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant has a membership card. I cannot believe that it has a formal roster of members. There may be a series of people who are associated with it, who have fought with it or worked with it, but I do not believe that it is likely to have a membership structure. I may be wrong; it may be that some of these organisations have a membership structure, but it would be useful to know from the Minister which of them do.

It will become a criminal offence to arrange a meeting to support a proscribed organisation. When, in respect of each of those organisations, has anyone organised a meeting in support of them? By a meeting, does the Minister mean a public meeting or does he mean a gathering of like-minded individuals? If it is the latter, I see that the order might have some function, but I wonder whether there have been public meetings organised in that way.

Finally, I ask about the proscription on wearing clothing or carrying articles in public which arouse reasonable suspicion that an individual is a member or supporter of one of those organisations. I have already made the point about whether those organisations have membership, but what would constitute clothing or articles that may be carried in public that would arouse that suspicion? If they have a membership badge which reads, “I am a member”, no doubt that is covered, but I do not think that that is what the Minister is talking about. Is it a scarf in a particular colour? Is it a particular style of dress? It would be helpful to have some clarity as to what that means in practice.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey, I thank the Minister for his explanation today—and for writing to me earlier this week with the details of the Government’s proposals and much of the information that he gave today.

This is not the first time that such an order has been debated in your Lordships’ House—by my reckoning, it is the fifth such order that I have been involved in debating—but it is right that we have an opportunity to have a serious debate, so I appreciate the time that the Minister took to put on record the information that he did, because the proscription of any group or organisation is not a matter to be taken lightly.

The Government have to be confident that the information that has led them to propose proscription is robust, accurate and up-to-date. This is a very tough measure. As my noble friend Lord Harris just said, it makes it illegal to belong to or in any way support a listed organisation, so it can be used only when it is essential to protect the national interest. Although as the Official Opposition we do not have access to the same security and intelligence information as is available to Ministers, we base our judgment in support of proscription orders on the assurances of Ministers. That is why we are grateful for the explanation given by the Minister today, and why we support the order before us today.

A group can be proscribed under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act 2000 if it,

“commits or participates in acts of terrorism … prepares for terrorism … promotes or encourages terrorism, or … is otherwise concerned in terrorism”.

The Minister spoke of the care taken by the Home Secretary in considering these matters. I would also place on record some kind of tribute to or appreciation of those agencies that undertake the gathering of such evidence. That obviously takes considerable time and requires painstaking attention to detail, while of course at times it can be very dangerous to seek to gather such information.

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[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, for their speeches and their support of the Government bringing forward the order. They are quite right to challenge; that is why we have these debates. However, this is very much a cross-party issue; indeed, the legislation under which we are dealing with these matters was introduced by the previous Government. The truth is that both the Home Secretary and I, and I believe the House, strongly believe that ISIL, THKP-C, KaK, AAB and PFLP-GC—I will get these initials right in the end; your Lordships can tell that I am slightly word-blind—should be added to the list of proscribed organisations in Schedule 2.

There were some usual useful challenges and it is good that we should discuss them. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, asked what proscription does. It effectively outlaws listed organisations, as I said in my speech. It stops people belonging to an organisation from arranging any sort of meeting supporting it—in other words, meeting in any numbers at all—and wearing clothing or any identifying articles that can be considered to show support for that organisation. In other words, it makes it difficult for such an organisation to prosper in this country.

Our priority is to make it difficult for these organisations to survive in this country. It sends a strong message that terrorist organisations are not tolerated in the UK and deters them operating here. It is a valuable tool as it supports other disruptive activities, including immigration disruptions, prosecution for other offences, messaging and EU asset freezes. The assets of a terrorist organisation are terrorist property and therefore are liable to be seized. That is an important aspect when one thinks of the funds that have been available to some of these organisations.

The noble Lord asked whether these organisations have members and whether they are card-carrying members. No. The criminal offence requires that a person belongs to or professes to belong to a proscribed organisation. It does not require a subscription to have been paid in the way that we are members of our parties. It is a different sort of membership, but it is with a serious purpose in mind. The Section 13 offence is of wearing clothing in such a way or in such circumstances as to arouse a reasonable suspicion that a person is a member. Whether somebody is prosecuted will depend on the circumstances, but if, for example, a person wears a badge with the insignia on it it would constitute an offence, so it effectively bans the wearing of the insignia of an organisation.

While understanding the reason why these organisations are being banned, the noble Baroness asked whether, given the fact that in February al-Qaeda announced that it was severing its links with this group, there was an interim period with a security risk. The fact that a group is not proscribed does not prevent the police or the Crown Prosecution Service taking action against an individual for terrorist offences. The fact that a group is not proscribed does not prevent other disruptive activity, including these powers that I have talked of. None the less, it is quite clear that the two organisations are now separate and, indeed, in conflict with each other, and it is right that we should therefore ban ISIL.

Section 3(6) of the Terrorism Act 2000 allows the Home Secretary by order subject to the negative procedure to specify an alternative name for an organisation to deal with these matters. The listing of proscribed organisations is kept under review, including whether they are operating under any aliases. This is why, following review, the Home Secretary decided specifically to ban ISIL under Section 3 of the Terrorism Act. This provides an effective mechanism for dealing with organisations which, as the noble Baroness will know, splinter all the time and when actual membership is difficult to prove for exactly the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, provided.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am grateful to the Minister. I think he has confirmed my understanding, but I hoped I was wrong. In the letter he sent to me he pointed out that ISIL is designated as a terror group in Canada and Australia and as an alias of al-Qaeda in the US, New Zealand and the UN. It seems that there is a mechanism so, as groups splinter off, action is taken to deal with them. What he appears to be saying is that we have to take separate action once a group splinters and that there was a gap when ISIL was not proscribed. Even though it was known to be part of al-Qaeda, it was covered only by the order affecting al-Qaeda.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Action would have been taken against any individuals who were involved in ISIL’s activities under the proscription of al-Qaeda. This has been specifically mentioned today because we wish to make it clear that that organisation is proscribed and that the full force of the law, through anti-terrorism measures, can therefore be levelled against that body.

The noble Baroness was quite right to mention Prevent, which is an important part of the anti-terrorism measures. The police’s Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit has taken down 34,000 pieces of unlawful terrorist-related content which encourage or glorify acts of terrorism, of which 15,000 have come down since the extremism taskforce concluded in 2013. Through proposals from the extremism taskforce, as announced by the Prime Minister in December, we want to further restrict access to terrorist material which is hosted overseas and to identify other harmful extremist content to be included in filters. The police also have comprehensive powers to take action against people who spread hatred and incite violence.

To counter the messages of those who are attempting to recruit fighters to Syria and Iraq, we produce community-wide messages that aim to raise awareness of the risks of travelling and directly target the motivation for travel. We also provide tailored advice for those who are actively considering travel before their plans develop. I repeat that people intending to travel to Syria, as well as returnees, are actively considered for Prevent interventions. We do not recommend travel to Syria.

I conclude by saying that proscription is based on clear evidence that an organisation is concerned in terrorism. We need that evidence in order to make a proscription order and there is a process laid down in law which we are rightly required to follow. It is not targeted at any particular faith or social grouping. It is my and the Home Secretary’s firm opinion that, on the basis of the available evidence, all five groups named in the order meet the statutory test for proscription. It is appropriate in each case for the Home Secretary to exercise her discretion to proscribe these groups.

Proscribing these groups linked to the conflict in Syria demonstrates our condemnation of their activities and our support for the efforts of members of the international community in tackling terrorism. Proscribing them will also enable the police to carry out disruptive action against their supporters in the UK and to ensure that they cannot operate here. For that reason, I commend this order to the House.