Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Lord Boswell of Aynho

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, having listened to this debate and many of the discussions in Committee on the Bill, I commend the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Best. I hope that the Minister will accept it, first, because the noble Lord has performed a considerable service in bringing his expertise to bear on the issue. I need not go on about that, other than to say that as someone who has no claim to expertise in housing policy I have increasingly come to the view that in many areas of social policy and social advance housing policy is cardinally important because it impacts on all the other areas. Therefore, by extension, the review that the noble Lord proposes will begin to consider some of the ripple effects of these changes on other situations or aspects.

Secondly, perhaps the most relevant analogy that I can make is that we never quite know when we embark on a major element of social change how it will end up. We all have political positions, we ground them in advance, and we then have to sit back and wait for the consequences. Generally, it is unwise to go for the big bang, although Ministers have to do that. I give as an example the changes made in industrial relations policy unsuccessfully in the 1970s. They were then brought in successfully and seriatim in the 1980s rather than in one big advance. We are not in that situation today and I can understand where the Minister finds himself.

We need a process and I shall pick up just two points from the debate. One is from my noble friend Lord German who stressed in his very happy analogy of the Harrington report the importance of independence. The amendment specifically states as a rubric that the review should be independent. As a government supporter, I am entirely relaxed about that; we should follow where the argument goes, look at the consequences and amend them.

I also pick up a point made by my noble friend Lord Kirkwood. He talks about in-flight corrections. We have two stages to this process—the regulations to come, which might be called pre-take-off corrections, and the review following the experience of the initial running of the system, which we should look at carefully. The Minister should do that with a measure of flexibility. We know that resources are very limited. The noble Lord conceded that when moving his amendment, but we should be ready. It is very much in the spirit of the discussion that we have had throughout this long saga, in which the Minister and other noble Lords have played a commendable part. We have done our best in limited circumstances. We sort of launch in hope without certain knowledge of where we will go but, given the noble Lord’s amendment, with a determination to keep our eyes open as to what is happening and to make such corrections as may be appropriate and just.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I shall say just a brief word. Barristers always say that you should never ask a question in open court unless you know what the answer will be. I fear that Ministers often take a similar attitude to research: do not ask a question unless you know what the answer will be and you know that you will like it. I commend the Minister, because I have had the impression throughout the passage of the Bill that he is not that kind of Minister but is genuinely interested in information. Because of that, I hope that he will feel able to give a generous response to the encouragement of many Members of the House to look for information.

I have two things for the Minister to think about. One is to follow up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, which is that if the Minister is right and rents change as a result, we will all be interested to learn that. If they do not, we will have learnt something about the market. If that is the case, that creates a question rather than just answering one: what is happening with the state of the housing market and what other levers are available to the state? It would be extraordinarily helpful to the country as a whole if the Minister would use his position in government to commend that set of questions to his colleagues, rather than stopping at that point.

My second point is in response to the comments made by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds, which concerned the broader effects, particularly on families with children. Many noble Lords will be aware that when the United States engaged in significant welfare reform, one fear expressed at the time was that many people would simply disappear from the system altogether. Research was undertaken and that proved to be the case. I have expressed concern at different points during the Bill's passage about what happens to vulnerable children, in particular, and, more broadly, to vulnerable families. Perhaps the Minister can take this opportunity to reassure the House that the Government will do all that they can to track what is happening to individuals so that they do not fall out of the notice of the authorities.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Lord Boswell of Aynho

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, I wish to raise briefly the question of whether to centralise payments to people in extreme difficulty or whether to leave that to the discretion of local authorities or, as was originally suggested prior to the First World War, friendly societies, or others. That idea has subsisted for at least 100 years and I think it will continue. I am generally supportive of the localism agenda and I can see material benefits in devolving this opportunity to local authorities. However, the amendments raise two issues that need a little reflection.

The wider question, which has been touched on by a number of noble Lords, is whether this money, which was intended for people in severe difficulties, will continue, albeit with local administration, to be applied to such people in general. I think that on the whole the Government are facing in the right direction here, but I look forward to the Minister’s assurances on it.

The specific twist that I want to add was prompted by something that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said about whether there should be a local connection. Clearly there is the subtext that there could be some discrimination in favour of the local boy or girl against someone from outside, someone who was felt to be in some sense the architect of their own distress or someone in some way morally unworthy. I do not want to go on about that now, but we can see the argument developing.

I should like the Minister to consider—and it may be helpful to him to do so—the fact that since the passage of the Housing Act some 16 years ago, we have had all the equality duties, including the public sector equality duty. Certainly local authorities, in exercising the discretion being offered them, will have to operate within the framework of that duty. I wonder whether that is indeed helpful in obtaining the assurances that I think we want with regard to making sure not only that the money goes where it is intended to go but that it goes to the people who need it most within that category of difficulty, rather than being siphoned off to people who are more acceptable or who come more within the interest of the local authority concerned.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I want to speak in favour of all these amendments and to ask a question about Amendment 50ZB. When we discussed the Social Fund on our previous day on Report, I raised the fact that the Office of the Children’s Commissioner had published the Child Rights Impact Assessment of the Welfare Reform Bill. I understand that at that point the Minister had not had the opportunity to read the assessment in any detail, but I wonder whether he has had the chance to read it since then and, if so, whether he can assure the House about the line that says:

“In failing to guarantee that crisis support is available for children fleeing an abusive home with their parent/carer, the clauses abolishing the Social Fund fail to take all appropriate legislative measures to protect children from domestic abuse and we therefore believe they are in breach of Article 19”,

of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. That goes to the heart of the point which the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, has just raised. People might have a very good reason to cross boundaries. If one were fleeing domestic violence, that would be a good reason not to move to the neighbouring street, as I am sure the noble Lord would accept. How can the Government guarantee that local authorities will give appropriate support to children and families in that circumstance, and how can they prove that the UK will discharge its responsibilities under this convention?

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Lord Boswell of Aynho

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Sherlock]

I will focus on another point. Would the Minister mind answering the two points together? I am interested in trying to understand this. I have worked in the past with girls who got pregnant while they were in education, dropped out of school and were then eventually encouraged to get back to the stage where they could again get an education. The Minister has made clear his position on those who did not have basic literacy and those who might want to go to university or higher education. As I understood it from the amendment of my noble friend Lady Lister, we are talking about level 3: that is, A-levels or an international baccalaureate. I am not completely sure whether a young woman in that situation, who wanted to go back and get herself up to A-levels, would be allowed to do that or have to fit that around looking after children and a job as well.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

Further to that intervention, will the Minister also comment on the thought that occurs to me? It is that the test should be the value added from the education sought, at whatever level that happens to be.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Sherlock and Lord Boswell of Aynho

Monday 24th October 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, I shall respond briefly to the helpful introduction from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter of Kentish Town. Two points occur to me. The background to passported benefits is a wonderful mish-mash—an attempt, in effect, to meet certain social needs and then, possibly, to avoid the interaction of malign or unfortunate consequences by trying to dovetail them in some way, which produces an acceptable outcome. It would be a brave person who said to this Committee that they fully understood them—and I certainly do not rate myself among them—or who thought that there was a sublime, overarching concept that reconciled them all. Even the Social Security Advisory Committee will have some difficulty with it.

I simply want to distil my concerns, and I hope that the Minister will respond to them. The first is the simple point, which the noble Baroness has already mentioned, that if one believes that the whole principle of universal credit is making work pay and that benefit is withdrawn on a smooth taper, it is clearly very important to consider the consequences for other kinds of benefit when people come in or out of the system. In other words, the anomalies, inconsistencies and differences in coverage become, if anything, more critical under the new regime.

I feel very strongly about the second point, which the noble Baroness did not bring out perhaps quite so clearly. The two benefits that she produced, school meals and health costs, are very salient and important, but there will be others—including some attachment to disability, which may relate to transport costs or otherwise—which may be less obvious. However, what is clear, and was clear when I did a little work on this, is that a very large number of government departments become engaged on this. It is very difficult for anybody, even with the erudition of my noble friend the Minister, to stitch these together and get an overall view of what is going on. One can be quite sure that the Minister’s transport colleagues, admirable though they may be, are not taking that overview, although the particular benefit in question, whether health costs or school meals or otherwise, may be very important to the individual or family concerned. So that must be looked at.

I hope that the Minister will approach this in the spirit of giving assurances in principle, and in the determination of the assistance of the expert advice that he will receive, to achieve sensible solutions. It would be absurd to set out the admirable and agreed principle of universal credit, with a smooth taper and making work pay, and then find that we had left this, because it was in the “too difficult” category. Some of the consequences of the withdrawal of any of these benefits might be very damaging to individuals.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I, too, support the aims of this amendment, which are primarily about protecting certain key benefits but also making sure that they are not subject to the benefit cap, which we will come to later. My noble friend Lady Hayter of Kentish Town carefully set out the challenge that the Minister will have in squaring a circle, in making sure that work pays but also dealing with the consequences of a quite important specific provision. I ask the Minister to reflect briefly in his reply on the fact that free school meals, for example, have more than one public policy aim. How does he go about squaring that? They clearly are a means of effectively transferring a benefit that has a cash value to some of the poorest families in the country, but they also have the effect of making a hot or at least good, nutritious, meal available to children within all those poorest families. That feels like a separate and quite specific policy aim. How will he ensure that that policy aim will be achieved within whatever solution he comes up with?

As the Minister will know—and I certainly support the view of his erudition, which is obviously legendary—the evidence of the efficacy of free school meals goes back to the 1960s. If anything, the evidence suggests the extension of breakfast clubs rather than going in the opposite direction. Some noble Lords, perhaps more on this side of the House, may have read the Observer yesterday, in which there was a piece specifically on breakfast clubs. It looked at both, mentioning in passing that one in four school children in the UK are in a position where the only hot meal that they have in the day is their school lunch. It was talking in particular about breakfast clubs. An interesting head teacher in a very poor area described the benefits of breakfast clubs as being way beyond any cash benefit and being in the energy of children, improving their behaviour and improving their learning. She said:

“It helps with their socialisation skills too. School is about life chances and unless the children have something in their bellies then they are not going to get those life chances they deserve. There is very little money out there in our community and for many it's cheaper to feed the family on takeaway fried chicken than anything else. You see the leftovers in lunchboxes, or rice; we get a lot coming in with just rice.

We tried to run a breakfast club ourselves, it was £1 a day, but the numbers just dwindled away and you realise that it doesn't seem expensive but it adds up, five days a week, three children or more. It's a lot. And you can't turn a child away if they arrive without their £1”.

The article also pointed out that breakfast clubs are starting to shut around the country as a result of a combination of budget cuts and the ending of ring fencing for wrap-around care. If we are not careful and end up with a solution that does not retain the provision of free school meals, we could end up with a double whammy, with the two potential sources of nutritious food available to children disappearing at the same time.

I am just as concerned, as I know everybody in this room is, that the universal credit system continues to make work pay and that we do not find ourselves in a position where someone who is now entitled to free school meals will not be entitled to them in the future. That would be a travesty of the anti-poverty element as well as of the work incentive element of universal credit. It means that we have to consider carefully the other policy implications.

In the years I worked with single parents, I became very aware that the vast majority of parents prioritise spending on their children. In fact, I often met lone parents who went without food themselves in order to buy things for their children. Indeed, there is research that bears that out. I suspect that my noble friend Lady Lister may have done it; she seems to do most of it. The evidence is very clear, but none the less there is a minority who, for a variety of reasons, are not in a position to put the kind of food in front of their children that we would wish them to do. In some cases there simply is not enough money to go round. Since it is cash, it is subject to an awful lot of other pressures: a huge bill coming in, debt collectors, being sanctioned or fined, or other pressures on the budget. At least this is money that is for the child, not simply for the family. I do not want to say any more than that. I am not pretending it is easy. When he replies, will the Minister reflect how he will do those three things: protect those families that currently get the benefit of free school meals; ensure that work continues to pay; and fulfil the other policy objective?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, will not take it as an insult—I assure him that it is not intended to be one—if I say that he is genuinely an expert as well as an enthusiast on the use of the IT system in government. I warm to that, and I have a great deal of sensitivity to what he and my noble friend Lord German have said about the need to get the system right. I am perhaps a little less pessimistic than the noble Lord, Lord Knight, in introducing his remarks, which seemed a little apocalyptic at one or two points. Perhaps I may also say that they were not quite as differentiated as they might be between general concerns about the level of unemployment or economic activity, about which we could have a debate in another context, and specific issues about the impact on the universal credit system.

In that context, one of the three points that I would like to ask the Minister to comment on is his assessment of the extent to which the system is sensitive to variations in volume, with all the difficulties that he is putting together, which have been rightly touched on. Depending on the number of claimants, there could be consequences if it has been under-specified; it could be resourced for a lower number but the numbers turn out to be higher. There could be quite a small movement of the margin which could tip over the sensitivity of the system. That is the first point.

The second point is an extension or a reflection on the point raised by my noble friend Lord German about the transfer of data. I am not a great expert in this, although I have taken an interest in some of these security issues. Indeed, there has been a conversation about the dangers of discrediting the system or the political class more generally if all this went wrong. It would be helpful if the Minister gave reassurances, not only on the specification of the data transfer but on the security and understanding of the transfer of that data. I think there is a strong wish across the Committee that data that is publicly relevant and obviously impacts on people's housing benefit, as it now will, on their housing claim, on other aspects of their financial package, or on arrangements with the public sector, should be transferrable. As one makes that longer daisy chain, there is also concern that it might get out of control or get into inappropriate hands.

Perhaps I may take the analogy produced by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, about the Department of Transport system for vehicle licensing, a system which I used at the weekend entirely successfully and, to be honest, because it has rather good graphics, quite enjoyably. The first time I used it, I thought to myself, “Do these people really know that I am insured and did I give consent that they should know?”. Now, because it is extremely convenient, I am very happy to accept that. There are issues about public reassurance, not least about employment data getting out to the public sector, to which the Minister may wish to respond.

The third point—one could say it is my motive for making this speech—is having intervened in the noble Lord’s introductory remarks, I realised when I sat down that I had given the wrong date for my entitlement to the pension. I did not want anyone here or in the wider world to assume that just because I said 2005, as I did, that in some way Members of this House or Members of the other place had an inside track to get their pension two years early. So I am now putting it on the record that when I said 2005, I should have said 2007. I want to cap it with a specific point. That is the kind of error which, however well conceived the system is, whether it is a public input or, in this case, a private input, it can be wrong; it can be a verbal slip or a misreading. We get older and we do not read the digits as clearly as we might.

One of the biggest points—I come back partly to the experience of tax credits, as a former Member of Parliament, and no less to child maintenance claims under the CSA, as it was—is that there is a huge capacity either on the official side of the system or on the private side to make entirely innocent errors, which then need correction. They may appear and then need to be sorted out. One element that the Minister needs to bottom—perhaps my noble friend will speak about this—is a system that enables people to get such errors attended to when they are noticed, without huge bureaucratic difficulty or excess delay, otherwise people will often run away from putting them right. That is where the rubber hits the road and where, despite the macro concerns that have been set out in this amendment, we should equally recall that there are micro-concerns: “Is it sensitive to me? Do I feel comfortable using it?”. I would be very grateful if my noble friend could give us some assurances along those lines.

[Baroness Sherlock]

I want to intervene briefly to ask the Minister a couple of specific questions. There is very little to add to the speech made by my noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth. The Minister should hope that this does not go badly because he may find that speech being quoted back at him. He has been warned, and very eloquently too.

I have huge sympathy for the Minister. As I have said before in this Committee, I was involved as a special adviser during the development of tax credits, and I watched Ministers seek and receive all assurances that it would be reasonable for a Minister in those circumstances to have. I would not for one moment suggest that the officials with whom they worked, all of whom I was hugely respectful of, did anything other than give the best assurances they could. However, until a system is up and running one never really knows how it will respond to the realities of the information within it, so we all know this is a risk.

I want to ask the Minister about what kind of assurances he has been seeking and receiving and, in particular, whether he has been getting any independent assurance on the development and management of this project. As I understand it, the DWP’s development of its system is going to be dependent on the revenue’s system. Has the Minister received any assurance from the Treasury that has enabled him to progress, given the interdependence of those two things? Has he received assurances from the Treasury or from HMRC, in particular, about the nature of their systems so that he can make plans on the back of them? Secondly, what assurance has he about whether his plans are robust enough? If he will not tell us what it is, what is the nature of the assurance that was sought and from whom was it sought? I am aware that by and large large-scale government projects of this nature often seek some kind of independent assurance, perhaps from an independent auditor, whether internally or externally procured. Can the Minister assure us that the department has been through that process and can he reassure us on the basis of the reassurance that he has been given?

Thirdly, I am interested in how plan B will work. I am very sorry to say that I cannot make the briefing on 3 November. That is a genuine disappointment on my part. I am in the anorak category as well. I am afraid I am engaged with a communities and victims panel looking at the impact of the riots, and that takes me elsewhere on that day. Can the Minister explain very briefly how plan B will work? For example, is it the intention that businesses will report real-time information manually monthly or that individuals will report? Is the assumption that the DWP part of the game, where it matches up the different packets of real-time information from different employers in relation to individuals or households, will be done automatically as it is now? How will that work? Is it the intention that the new child maintenance system will be dependent on the same HMRC real-time information system? If so, is there any priority about which of these projects gets first dibs on the HMRC data, should it come under pressure?

If the Minister can answer only one question, I am really interested in the assurance question, so he will save me getting up again. Finally, if there is reporting under plan B, has he been able to get advice on what additional pressure that will put on the system? I am conscious that automated systems often put on much less pressure than processing individually and manually entered data, whether from businesses or elsewhere. Is that something that has been factored in?