Christians: Persecution

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, for securing this debate and introducing it so comprehensibly, and to all noble Lords who have spoken.

We on these Benches are absolutely committed to the importance of promoting and protecting freedom of religion or belief for all. Since that was questioned as a framework for this debate, it is worth returning to Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which could not be clearer that:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion”,


including the freedom to change their religion and the right to manifest it. Despite that clarity, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, violations of these rights happen daily. I was very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, for his candour in saying that he was simply not aware of the scale of persecution of Christians; that feels like something that other noble Lords have mentioned and probably goes further than just him. Listening to the description of the watch-list showing that 365 million Christians worldwide are not simply being given a hard time but face

“high levels of persecution and discrimination for their faith”

should give us all pause for thought.

We are in the season where many of the world’s major faiths have a focus, and it feels particularly poignant that we are having this debate in Holy Week, when most western churches mark the events leading up to the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I should declare as an interest that I am an ordained minister in the established Church of England. When I go freely to church on Easter morning to celebrate the resurrection, it will be an occasion of great joy, so it is deeply painful that one in seven Christians globally will be unable to go to church to mark the resurrection or will do so at great personal risk. That should be a cause for concern to all people of good will, whatever their faith.

The sheer global scale of the persecution of Christians was underscored in the latest annual report on international religious freedom from the Pew Research Center in the US. It assessed 198 countries and found that Christians were harassed by Governments or private actors in 160 of them in 2021. This reflects that sheer global scale; it was noted in the Truro report that, as perhaps the single biggest genuinely global religion, Christianity becomes something of a bellwether for oppression more generally. There are two reasons for this debate to be important. One is to inform those who, like the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, do not know about the scale of the persecution of Christians, but the other is that if Christians are being persecuted, so are other people. I was very grateful to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Oxford for making it clear that Christians standing up and talking about the persecution of Christians are not doing so because they are Christians; they are doing so because they are being persecuted. It is hard to justify that theologically in anybody’s book.

Particular countries of concern have been mentioned: North Korea is still ranked as the most dangerous place in the world to be a Christian; China and Pakistan were both mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alton; the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, and the noble Lord, Lord Curry, mentioned India; Laos has jumped 10 places to 21st in the watch-list; Cuba and Mexico have been flagged up by Christian Solidarity Worldwide; and Nigeria, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, and others, is a source of considerable concern when the best part of 5,000 Christians have been murdered there for their faith. There are also issues, as the noble Baroness, Lady Foster, said, elsewhere in sub-Saharan Africa; there have been deaths in the DRC, Burkina Faso, Cameroon and the CAR, and many Christians have been displaced in that region. Can the Minister tell us how the Government view this region and what they are doing to speak into the situation there?

A number of noble Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Curry, referred to the Truro report. Where the Government have credible evidence of severe violations of freedom of religion or belief, the Truro process requires the Foreign Secretary to consider whether to impose sanctions on the perpetrators. We have had sanctions imposed on individuals and entities in Myanmar and North Korea. Can the Minister update the House on whether any sanctions have been imposed recently on additional countries?

On the positive side, on a visit to Washington a few weeks ago, I had a meeting with Ambassador Rashad Hussain, the United States Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom and was very impressed to hear of the work that he and his team are doing. Given the Minister’s extensive interest and work in this area, could he update the House on what transatlantic partnership working is being done in this important area?

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, raised the question of trade deals. One way to hold different nations to account over their human rights and FoRB violations is to include human rights clauses in trade agreements that the UK is negotiating. Can the Minister update the House on whether, and if so how, the FCDO’s important work on human rights and FoRB is being reflected in our trade negotiations?

I welcome the Government’s initiatives to put this issue centre stage globally. We can all in this House agree on the important role that freedom of religious belief can play in tackling extremism and promoting democracy. Although today’s debate has focused on the important issue of persecution of Christians, sadly, as many noble Lords have noted, Christians are not alone in experiencing persecution. The Pew research found that Christians and Muslims face harassment in a larger number of countries than any other group, but that is a measure of scale rather than specifically depth of persecution. Other religious minorities are facing persecution at a frightening rate across the world; and I agree that we should not conclude without acknowledging the position of the non-religious, since the right not to practise a religion, or to abandon or change one’s religion, is just as fundamental and absolutely central to Article 18. We should be championing freedom of religion or belief for all around the world.

In closing, I pay tribute to all those noble Lords, many of whom have spoken this evening, who have spent years dedicatedly highlighting instances of persecution on grounds of religion and belief around the world. I also thank the many organisations in the field, including Open Doors and Christian Solidarity Worldwide, as well as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and all those whose staff and volunteers take risks so that we may get to hear about things that we would otherwise not hear about.

History has shown us that violations of freedom of religion or belief do not happen in isolation. Countries that fail to respect religious freedom or the right to no belief invariably fail to respect other basic human rights also. The UK must continue to call out human rights violations and abuses wherever they are to be found if we are to play our part in ensuring a free world where all can flourish. It is a reminder to us of the paramount importance of tackling persecution around the world but also of tackling hate incidents in our own place. This includes tackling anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and, above all, working together to be the kind of country where people of all faiths and none can live well together, respect one another and build a world in which, as I said, all of us can flourish. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Chemicals (Health and Safety) Trade and Miscellaneous Amendments Regulations 2022

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Barker (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister very much for her clear introduction to what are at first sight some rather technical and dry regulations. Technical and dry they may be, but they are very important. They deal with matters of considerable import, not least to agriculture, as well as to horticulture, which is also a significant part of our economy. The clear and consistent labelling of chemical products not only to people who import and export them but to consumers across the world is of increasing importance.

I take what the noble Baroness says—that these are simply technical changes consequent on our withdrawal from the EU—but I have a few questions. Do the regulations simply return GB law—I will come back to the difference between GB and UK law in a moment —to the point it was at when we exited the EU? Do they in any way impact on the future convergence of information exchange about labelling standards? The wording of the explanation of the role of the HSE and phrases such as “enabling there to be a pathway” for the HSE are somewhat general for such a tight and specific subject, and I did not find that particularly helpful. Are the regulations simply maintaining the status quo as it was when we exited the EU, or are they the basis for continuing monitoring of our diversions or convergence with EU legislation in this matter?

Secondly, there are specific references to Northern Ireland. The Explanatory Memorandum at paragraph 7 talks about the biocides regulation and makes particular reference to products that would be imported into Great Britain. I think it draws a distinction between products that will be imported into Great Britain and thence into Northern Ireland and, in similar fashion, the other way round. We are back to the vexed and as yet unresolved question of the Northern Ireland protocol and the Northern Ireland border. This is a really important subject because, as we know, agriculture is a significant part of the Northern Ireland economy. If we do not have clarity and consistency with other parts of the EU on biocidal products and chemicals, that must pose a significant risk.

Finally, towards the end of her introduction the Minister referred to cost. Can she say what the estimated cost to UK businesses will be in terms of the increased costs of maintaining regular exports to EEA and EFTA countries, and the estimated increase in import costs for products from those countries? I would be very much obliged if she answered some of those points.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to these regulations and for explaining them. I confess that I read both the regulations and the Explanatory Memorandum more than once, and stopped only when I realised that every successive reading was adding nothing to my understanding or indeed knowledge of the subject in question. So, I appreciate her summary.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, for some great questions. She is absolutely right that, while they seem dry, questions such as the easily comprehensible labelling of dangerous objects could hardly be more important in terms of protecting life and limb. I will ask some questions, and I apologise in advance if they are basic. However, I trust that the Minister has cavalry behind her who can assist should that be necessary.

As far as I can understand it—I know that the Minister will correct me when she responds if I have got it wrong—the instrument appears to do two main things. First, it provides for the creation of an information- sharing gateway so that the Health and Safety Executive can disclose information that it is required to disclose under the terms of the trade agreement between the UK and the EEA/EFTA. My first question is: what is it? What will the gateway look like? Is it a process or a piece of software? Is it online and is it secure?

The second question is fairly obvious: what will it do? The Explanatory Memorandum says:

“HSE needs a power in order to share information such as individual substance evaluations and risk assessments that it holds on chemicals to assist the UK in meeting its obligations on regulatory co-operation contained in the Chemicals Annex of this trade agreement.”


Can the Minister give me an example—I am a bear of very little brain—of some information that the UK is required to disclose as a result of this trade agreement which is in the gift of the HSE and which it currently does not have the power to disclose but, as a result of this regulation, will then be able to disclose?

Can the Minister also tell us where the information is coming from? She mentioned information coming from EFTA or EEA trade partners, but are we also talking about information that British firms have supplied to the HSE in the ordinary run of business? I am interested in the line of liability and the control of the data. Whose data is it, who controls it and where will it end up?

What are the limits on disclosure? Regulation 3 sets out three “permitted purposes” under which this information can be disclosed:

“to ensure health and safety … to ensure protection of consumers”

and

“to ensure protection of the environment.”

That is pretty broad. Given that it is that wide-reaching, can the Minister say what the boundaries are for disclosure and whether there will be any monitoring of the HSE’s decision-making in relation to it? Since the received information can be used only for a permitted purpose, what will be in place to monitor the use after the information has been disclosed?

There is a lot of amending and repealing going on here—amending the biocides regulation, amending and repealing two EU directives. How can you amend and repeal things? Do you amend them and then repeal them? I suppose it would not make any sense the other way around, but perhaps the Minister can shed some light on that. There was also amendment of the CLP regulation, the PIC regulation and related retained legislation

“to ensure the regulations continue to operate effectively.”

At this point I had completely lost any sense of which regulations were being enabled to operate effectively.

I am trying to get at what the end state is—the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, put it much more crisply. Where will we land once all this amending and repealing has happened? Are we back where we were before Brexit? Are we in a parallel space to where our EEA/EFTA trade partners are? Are we on some different diverging path? Where will we land? Also, can she assure us that, once all this amending and repealing has happened, the legislation—both retained and secondary—relating to health and safety in chemicals will be fit for purpose?

To give the Minister a bit of time, I will summarise the questions. What is the gateway? What information will go through it? Can we have an example of it? Where does the information come from? What are the limits on the information that can be disclosed, given the very wide-ranging parameters in the regulations? Where will we land once all this has happened? I am very excited to hear her reply.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I thank the eloquent noble Baronesses for their questions. As they say, this is a very technical piece of work, but I will do my best to respond. My cavalry is working very hard to ensure that I can do so with accuracy. I thank both noble Baronesses for contributing to this debate. In closing, I will try to deal with some of the issues. If I do not, noble Lords know that I will go away and do my homework to get the answers they deserve.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked about the Northern Ireland protocol. This instrument makes no changes in relation to Northern Ireland beyond correcting references in EU-derived domestic legislation to EU law which should reference the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland and ensuring that the definition of “export” in the GB PIC regulation clearly captures the removal of chemicals from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, as intended.

The noble Baroness also asked whether the regulations simply return GB regulations to their state when we left the EU. The CLP regulation has been retained as domestic law and now establishes a GB CLP system that is independent from the EU CLP regulation. It is therefore necessary to ensure our regulations no longer make deficient references to EU institutions or their processes and authority. These proposed changes ensure the last remaining references to the European Commission and its delegated powers to make amendments to specified articles and annexes are removed from the retained GB CLP regulation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, referred to the biocidal products regulation, or BPR. The regulations were brought into GB from EU BPR, but during this process, as I have said, some EU references within the legislation were not removed, so the changes in this SI ensure that GB BPR works as a piece of domestic legislation.

The noble Baroness also asked about estimated costs. There will be no costs to businesses arising from the regulatory information-sharing arrangements in the UK-EEA/EFTA trade agreement. The corrections to the retained chemicals regulations are to address deficiencies and inoperabilities. They allow the regulations to function as originally intended and do not have any financial implications.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, challenged us on what the information-sharing gateway will look like. It will be mostly regulatory information held by the HSE or parties to agreements, so it will be information on risk assessments—not confidential business info. Trade data will be for the Department for International Trade.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, raised the issue of disclosure. The GB PIC regulation implements the UK’s international obligations under the Rotterdam convention on the prior informed consent procedure for severely hazardous pesticides. The regulation establishes a system of export notification and information exchange to allow countries to make informed decisions about the chemicals they import. The GB regulation has been retained as domestic law, and now establishes a GB PIC export notification system that is independent from the EU PIC regulation.

--- Later in debate ---

I hope I have covered the questions. If I have not done so to noble Lords’ satisfaction or there are some outstanding, I give my word that I will write with the information. To conclude, this instrument will give HSE—

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I shall not press the Minister any further now. She has helpfully described what the regulations are intended to do, but she has not helped laypeople such as the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and I to understand what the end state will look like as a result of them. For example, she said that through removing deficiencies, we will have an independent GB CLP regulation process. It is great that it will not be deficient any more; I have no idea what it will look like, and I realise I should. If possible, when she writes, given the complexity of the regulations and the question, if she could describe the end state, we would be very grateful.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I am very happy to commit to doing that, subject to agreement from my officials. We are fine.

To conclude, the instrument will give HSE the power it needs to share regulatory information it holds on chemicals to assist the UK in meeting its obligations on regulatory co-operation contained in the chemicals annexe to the free trade agreement with the EEA/EFTA countries. This removes the barrier which was stopping information sharing under the free trade agreement, which would have been detrimental to HSE making informed decisions about the chemicals being imported and exported. By also correcting the outstanding deficiencies related to EU exit, we will ensure that retained and EU-derived domestic chemicals legislation continues to operate effectively. Therefore, I commend the instrument.

Cost of Living: Low Income Families with Children

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I have listened to the questions today and there is a real swell of opinion that the payments are not enough—I doubt that we could ever do enough. The package of measures we have provided is designed to target support to those most in need. It will make a real difference and, I am sure, help people through these very difficult times.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I fully accept that the Government cannot solve every problem, but one of the problems is that they cut billions off the value of benefits and tax credits, which meant that we went into the pandemic and then the cost of living crisis with families unable to manage. The Government’s response, which is welcome, is to give exactly the same amount of money to a single person living on their own as to a couple with three children, even though their costs of energy, clothes, shoes and everything else are way higher. Does the Minister not accept that families out there are seriously desperate and need more help?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I accept that families are struggling and that some are desperate. We have tried to make the process of giving the money we are giving as simple and unbureaucratic as possible. That is why we are making the payments as we are, starting this week, I think. We hope to have them all done by the end of July.

Occupational Pension Schemes (Governance and Registration) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Tuesday 12th July 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to the regulations. I always prefer to speak after my noble friend Lady Drake and to say that I agree strongly. It can leave the impression that I might have made the same points as forcibly, so I get the credit without any of the hard work that has been put in.

However, on this occasion, I will reinforce this issue of regulations. Just read the regulations as presented to us: this is not a sensible way to tell people how to run their pension schemes. However, it is too late; we have adopted this pattern and we just have to pile regulations upon regulations. We have the report from the committee, and I hope its views will be borne in mind. There is so much to do, and to do it with regulations requires this continual production of additional regulations, but who really understands them? We require the guidance from the Pensions Regulator, so in fact we have two sets: you can look at the regulations and at the guidance. I wish we had not gone down this road of setting out how pension funds should run.

I can claim some experience here because I was a pensions regulator. I was a member of the Occupational Pensions Board, and we introduced contracting out—you can tell it was a long time ago. We made a much better job of telling people what they could, should and should not do. We introduced this extremely complicated process of contracting out over a relatively short period and we did it through issuing guidance. The guidance was what ruled. Clearly, we had very strong enforcement powers, because if people did not follow our guidance they did not get their certificate, so they had to follow our guidance—I suspect it is not quite the same here. In that sense it was a much simpler task. I really feel that some deep thought needs to be given as to how the requirements on schemes should be set out. Doing it by regulations is manifestly not the way to do it but it is the way we have adopted. We are there now, and it would be very difficult to pull back. However, this has some impact on how the regulations are drafted, presented and handled.

Of course, one problem is that the industry will always be one step ahead, so it is not as if we will ever reach a final steady state of regulations—there will be continued processes. All I am asking for, in support of my noble friend, is that an overall view is taken of the way regulations are introduced and incorporated in the structure of pensions law. There is a much better way of doing it. Thirteen SIs in one year strikes one as absurd.

I conclude with a trivial point. I have always been fascinated by this—I have seen these things for many years, not only since becoming a Member of this noble House. What is the strict distinction between Explanatory Notes and Explanatory Memoranda? I told your Lordships that this is extremely trivial, but I note that “the Pensions Regulator” gets a small “t” in the Explanatory Note and a capital “T” in the Explanatory Memorandum.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, for those watching at home, I have just managed to pour water all over my speech, so I hope that noble Lords will bear with me if at points it ceases to make any sense.

I thank the Minister for her introduction to these regulations and all noble Lords who have spoken. Like my noble friend Lord Davies, I am delighted to speak after my noble friend Lady Drake—we all are. We all learn something from every time she contributes, and I thank her for her expertise and hard work on this.

Universal Credit (Removal of Two Child Limit) Bill [HL]

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 8th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham for introducing his Bill so clearly and all noble Lords who have spoken. Although it is a Private Member’s Bill, and therefore has little chance of becoming law, it gives us a really good opportunity to explore the impact of the two-child limit and to turn the spotlight on the way the Government have failed to support families with children, especially during these very difficult times.

Before looking at the Bill in detail, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Desai, for giving us his characteristic economist’s view of the welfare state, with all its inefficiencies, and for drawing attention to one thing that is always interesting: that the effective tax rate, or the marginal deduction rate, on the poor is so much higher than it is on the rich. This is something that is rarely attended to, so I thank him for reminding us of that today.

In looking at the impact of the policy, we need to remind ourselves, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham has done, of what Ministers said the policy was designed to do. They gave a number of reasons. First, the policy was to save money to reduce the deficit. Secondly, it was to be fairer to those who are not eligible for benefits and to the taxpayer. Thirdly, the policy would ensure that

“those on benefits face the same financial choices around the number of children they can afford as those supporting themselves through work”.

Like the right revered Prelate, I seethe every time a Minister says that and want to shout from the Back Benches, “Most people affected are in work already because these are in-work benefits”. He got there before me, which allowed me to have a little rant without feeling like I am alone again in this, so I am grateful for that.

Let us look at each of these in turn. First, this policy was part of an ongoing package of so-called austerity measures which began under the coalition Government and continued under the Conservative Government. We were told this package of policies was needed to save money to reduce the deficit and make social security spending more sustainable. I take the point of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham that it may in fact create costs down the line, but even taking it within its own light, the Minister will be aware—I know because I have cited it—of a detailed study by Ruth Lupton et al of the coalition Government’s tax and spend. It found that:

“Perhaps surprisingly, overall the ‘welfare’ cuts and more generous tax allowances balanced each other out, contributing nothing to deficit reduction.”


The strategy of austerity cuts, of which this was clearly a part, was never about reducing the deficit. In practice, it was about taking money from the poorest to pay for tax cuts. Tax cuts do not target those who need help most because even if you increase the personal tax allowance, someone earning £80,000 a year gets all of it and a single mum working 30 hours a week during term time at minimum wage does not earn enough to benefit at all.

On the question of the sustainability of social security spending, in April the OBR said that spending on universal credit and its predecessors was expected to fall to 3% of GDP by next year—the same level as in 1985-86. Can the Minister tell the House what level of spending on social security the Government believe would be sustainable as a proportion of GDP?

Secondly, it was argued that limiting benefits to the first two children is fairer to those not eligible for benefits and to the taxpayer. Benefits for children represent a transfer of resources from taxpayers as a whole to families with children—something discussed in the previous debate. That is by definition what they are. Those who do not have children subsidise the upkeep of all children because they are a public and a private good; we all benefit from having our next generation thriving and succeeding. The reality is that those who have children but are not eligible—usually it is because they are higher earners—will, in most cases, get child benefit, childcare support, free education and healthcare for their children, and much more besides. If they lose their jobs or get sick, or their circumstances change, greater support will be there waiting for them too. Can the Minister tell the House how the Government decided that two children was the right limit? Why not one or three? What was the rationale?

Then there is the motivational element to ensure that those on benefits face the same financial choices around the number of children they can afford as those supporting themselves through work. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, quoted a crucial part of the impact assessment:

“In practice people may respond to the incentives that this policy provides and may have fewer children.”


The impact assessment admitted there was no clear evidence, but the policy could only ever have had two effects: either the poor would have fewer children or families with more than two children would become poorer. It could do only one or the other; there was no other possible outcome.

As the right reverend Prelate and other noble Lords have said, we now have evidence from the study by Mary Reader et al, Does Cutting Child Benefit Reduce Fertility in Larger Families? Evidence from the UK’s Two-Child Limit. Has the Minister read that study? The research suggests that the two-child limit has had a minimal impact on fertility rates, as we have heard. Interviews with larger families subject to the two-child limit reveal some of the reasons, many of which have been mentioned—for example, pregnancies are not always planned. I take very clearly the point made by the right reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, about the awful position of somebody having to terminate a pregnancy—a child who was wanted—because they could not afford to have it. I think the whole House will be grieving over that consequence.

Then there is the fact that so many parents did not know about the limit until the child was born, such as “Stephanie”, mentioned by the right reverend Prelate. Further, some people, including but not exclusively in certain religious and ethnic communities, place a high value on having larger families and would therefore have them whatever the consequences—but the consequences for many would now be poverty for all the children in those families.

Although the policy did not reduce family size, CPAG points out that it has had a significant impact on the well-being of children in larger families. It says that every year about 50,000 children are pushed into poverty as a result of the limit and a further 150,000 children already living in poverty see their circumstances deteriorate further. To quote CPAG:

“If the central aim of the two-child limit was to reduce the number of people deciding to have a third child it has largely failed. The most sizeable impact of the policy has been to increase child poverty.”


Will the Minister tell the House what she believes this policy has achieved and whether she is pleased with this outcome?

Above all, there is the situation of people who have children, confident they can afford them, and then their circumstances change, including the millions of people who ended up on universal credit during the pandemic. Most of those people would never have expected to need government support and would have been shocked to find they were given support only for the first two children in their household. Did that give the Government any pause for thought about this policy?

The bigger picture is that having previously inflicted huge cuts in benefits to children, when times got really tough and Ministers realised that they had to take action, the steps they took were, once again, deeply unfair to families with children. They went for flat-rate payments which took no account of the presence of children in a household. The universal credit uplift during the pandemic, which was welcome, did not include an uplift in the elements relating to children. The latest package in the Social Security (Additional Payments) Act will give the same amount to a single person as to a family with three children, even though their costs are radically different.

I hope the Minister will take this opportunity to tell us whether she thinks the two-child limit has been a success. I am with the right reverend Prelate: it will not be enough simply to rehearse the arguments that were used before the Bill was introduced and when there was no evidence. The House deserves to see the evidence of the impact this policy has had on children and their parents. If the Government are not minded to reverse it, will the Minister tell the House what steps they will be taking to deal with growing child poverty, especially in larger families? I look forward to her reply.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office and Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Stedman-Scott) (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham for introducing this Bill and for the opportunity to debate again a subject dear to his heart and to those of others in the House.

My department is committed to supporting families and helping parents into work. This requires a balanced system that provides strong work incentives and support for those who need it, but also ensures a sense of fairness to the taxpayer and to the many working families who do not see their incomes rise when they have more children. We judge that the policy to support a maximum of two children is a proportionate way to achieve these objectives. Our overall approach is working, as evidenced by the fact that, between 2016 and 2021, the number of couples in employment who have children increased by 460,000—a 2.3 percentage point increase in the employment rate for this group.

The two-child policy was introduced five years ago and, since 6 April 2017, families have been able to claim support for up to two children. There may be further entitlement for other children if they were born before that 6 April or if an exception applies. The child element of universal credit is worth £290 for the first child born before 6 April 2017. It is worth a standard rate of £244.58 per child for the second and any other eligible children. Child benefit continues to be paid for all children, plus the additional element in child tax credit or universal credit for any disabled children. Additional help for eligible childcare costs through working tax credit and universal credit are also available, regardless of the total number of children in the household.

We recognise that some claimants are not able to make the same choices about the number of children in their family. That is why exceptions have been put in place to protect certain groups. Exceptions apply to third and subsequent children who are: additional children in a multiple birth, where an extra amount is payable for all children other than the first child; or likely to have been born as a result of non-consensual conception, which for this purpose includes rape or where a claimant was in a controlling or coercive relationship with the child’s other biological parent at the time of conception. An exception also applies to any children in a household who are: adopted when they would otherwise be in local authority care; living long-term with friends or family and would otherwise be at risk of entering the care system; or where a child under 16 living with their parents or carers has a child of their own, until they make a separate claim upon turning 16.

Statistics from the Office for National Statistics show that in 2020, of all families with dependent children, 85% had a maximum of two in their family. For lone parents, this was 83%. On the latest figures, 62% of households with a third or subsequent child who are in receipt of universal credit or child tax credit are not affected by the two-child policy.

This Government have always believed, and continue to believe, that the most sustainable way to lift children out of poverty is by supporting parents into work and, importantly, to progress in it, wherever possible. As I said, there has been a significant rise in the number of couples with children in employment between 2016 and 2021. I take the point the noble Baroness made that many of these people are in work, but one of the ways that we can help them is by them getting a better job and earning more income. That is a policy of this Government and one that we will be pursuing vigorously.

With 1.3 million vacancies across the United Kingdom, our focus remains on continuing to support parents into work and to progress in work, as I have already said. This approach is based on clear evidence about the importance of parental employment, particularly where it is full-time, in substantially reducing the risks of poverty and improving long-term outcomes for children.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that encouraging parents to get better jobs and allowing them to have benefits for all their children are not mutually exclusive?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I think it is fair to say that the Government have a differing view from that of the noble Baroness and people on the Opposition Benches. It is exactly that our helping people to get a better job, if they can, and more income—plus all the support that we are putting through the welfare system—is the policy that the Government are pursuing. We want everybody to be able to find a job, progress in work and thrive in the labour market, whoever they are and wherever they live. Our support for people out of work is tailored—

Shortage of Workers

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I know that he is full of ideas, and I am sure we will hear from him very soon.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, there are indeed lots of vacant jobs with no applicants, but that is just for government Ministers of course.

The Government approach the problem of vacancies as though the basic problem is lots of idle, unemployed people. They pour money into restarting Kickstart and start big sanctions, but what we have is a crisis of economic inactivity. For example, we have a whole load of people aged over 50 who either lost or left their jobs in the pandemic and never came back, and we have a post-pandemic crisis of mental and physical ill-health. Is not that where the Government should direct their energies?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I am very pleased to tell the noble Baroness that that is exactly what we are doing. For older workers—those over 50—there is a £22 million fund to boost employment support. I can assure the whole House that we are not looking at people as being idle; we are looking at them as people with potential and the ability to add value to an employer. We are working very carefully with them to get them in a position to do that.

Gender Pensions Gap

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Monday 27th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, to get a sense of scale, I wonder whether the Minister has read the 2019 report from the Pension Policy Institute. It found that, by the time they got to their early 60s, women’s median private pension worth was a third of what it was for men. Given that women tend to live longer than men, that is a massive problem. It means that they are going to be poor in retirement. There have been lots of different reasons but the report found that key drivers were women taking time out of the labour market, as has been mentioned, caring for older relatives and children. If the things that the Minister describes were working, we would not have this problem, would we? What is the Government’s plan to put it right?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

In relation to the point that many noble Lords have made about the time women have out of the workplace, I have outlined national insurance credits. In terms of the specifics that the Government are doing, I will need to write to the noble Baroness because I am not fully up to date on them.

Social Security (Additional Payments) Bill

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

3rd reading & 2nd reading & Committee negatived
Monday 27th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction to the Bill and all noble Lords who have spoken. I thank my noble friend Lady Lister for halving the length of my speech by her excellent analysis. I would be really interested to hear the Minister’s response because, as a critique of what has happened to families with children, there are many questions that the Government have to answer, and I really hope that she will take the time to do it properly. There can be few Members of this House who know more about child poverty than my noble friend Lady Lister. When she makes a critique like that, it needs to be listened to.

These are the toughest times that most British people alive now will have had to live through. By next April, wages will be worth £2,000 less in real terms than just in 2020. Real pay in the UK is falling at the fastest rate for 20 years. Inflation is over 9% and rising. Fuel prices are skyrocketing and we are warned that the energy cap could rise by as much as another £1,000 in October. People are more desperate than they have been in a very long time.

Following the Spring Statement, the OBR warned that we were heading for the biggest fall in living standards since the 1950s, with more children set to be pushed even into absolute poverty. It was to avoid this catastrophe that Labour proposed a windfall tax on North Sea gas and oil producers to help families and pensioners. I am delighted that, after some months—indeed, after many months of ridiculing the policy—the Government have adopted it. If the Minister wants other ideas on how the Government should change their mind, I look forward to her having a chat with me and I can gladly supply her with some in future.

We recognise the extra support that the Government are now allocating, and these measures are welcome as far as they go. However, I share my noble friend’s concern that help is once again being given by a series of one-off payments, rather than addressing the underlying problem, which is the inadequacy of the social security system. I know that Ministers know that the welfare state is not fit for purpose because, when the pandemic hit and millions of people were flowing on to benefits, they had to add £20 a week to universal credit because they knew people could not manage. Once millions of people could see that, they would realise the system was not fit for purpose. However, that £20 was taken away just as inflation started to rise and now millions of people are struggling to feed and clothe their children and pay their bills. Why has it taken us so long to get to today? The pandemic may have been a shock overnight but the rise in prices was not—we have seen this coming. As the chair of the Work and Pensions Committee said when this Bill was debated in another place,

“the decision has been taken to replace adequate uprating with ad hoc payments from the Treasury”.—[Official Report, Commons, 22/6/22; col. 897.]

The Government should have put in place a broader package of support through our social security system. It has been established that one-off packages, with heavily simplified eligibility, lead both to increased fraud and to the kind of rough justice we have heard about. We have heard about rough justice for children. Can the Minister really justify a scheme that gives the same amount to a single person on benefits as to a couple with three children when their energy, food, clothing and other costs are so radically different? Families in the bottom half of the income distribution with two or more children spend twice as much on food, essential household goods and services, clothing, footwear and transport, but there is no recognition of this. The social security system acknowledges things such as family size up to a point, but this does not and cannot. Does the Minister accept that this is rough justice?

Does the Minister also accept that it is rough justice for people with fluctuating incomes, a point made by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, in a helpfully clear critique of the impact on people who are self-employed? As we have heard, this £650 payment comes in two parts. To be eligible for each, the claimants must be entitled to a minimum amount of benefit or tax credit in respect of an assessment period covering a specified date. However, the Minister often tells us how happy she is about universal credit coming in, because it is really flexible—it flexes to someone’s circumstance—yet she has designed a system that makes that a disadvantage. Universal credit is designed to flex month by month, so some people will be entitled to a payment one month but nothing the next because their income is lumpy in that way. If they are unlucky with how that falls, and they get nothing in the month in question, they will not get one penny from this system. That can even hit people whose earnings do not change at all, just because they happen to have two paydays within one universal credit assessment period—for example, the last Monday of the month. When that happens, the system thinks their pay has doubled, they earn too much, get no universal credit and, therefore, they will not be eligible for this. Given that the Government boast about the flexibility of universal credit, what are they going to do about these payments, to give support to those for whom that flexibility is taking away any chance of any support at all? I would be interested in hearing whether someone who is self-employed, who is simply getting nothing just because of the minimum income floor, will therefore be excluded entirely from the payments.

There is a different form of rough justice for some disabled people who have non-means-tested benefits. They will be eligible for the £150 payment. However, the Minister can tell the House, I am sure, that the Government are in the process of changing the rules specifically to debar 290,000 people who get DLA, PIP or attendance allowance from getting £140 off their energy bills through the warm home discount scheme—“Have £150 here, give me back £140 over there and have £10.” In these circumstances, the reason disabled people get these benefits, even though they are non-means tested, is to cover the extra costs of disability. That includes things such as higher energy bills and higher transport costs. Can the Minister explain why the Government are giving help with one hand while taking it away with the other? I would also be interested to hear a response to the query about carer’s allowance from my noble friend Lady Lister.

The Minister points to the household support fund—this is always the answer, the great catch-all, whenever we raise a question. I think loaves and fishes were mentioned. I have a great affection for loaves and fishes and like to see them extended. However, much as I admire some things the Minister says, I do not think she yet has the power to multiply loaves and fishes. The household support fund will be a fixed amount of money. I have been looking at the websites for some councils, and many have already made their allocations for the period April to September. They specify what is for; they are often small grants for particular purposes. For April to September, is more money coming in, will the guidance change and, if not, will anyone get any help then, even they miss out on these payments altogether in the first tranche in July? For the extra money in the period from October, will the government guidance say that the kind of people we have described who miss out on the payment because of rough justice should be able to get the full £650 from the household support fund? If so, will there be enough, and what will happen to all the other things it is supposed to be spent on as well?

On pensions, I am sure the Government now regret breaking their manifesto promise commitment to the triple lock, given what is happening to pensioner poverty. It is good that those on pension credit will be able to claim the £650, but—it is a small point—why does the impact assessment show fewer people on pension credit getting the second payment than the first? Is there something going on there that the Minister wants to explain? The impact assessment projects the case load, the number of people on pension credit who will get payments 1 and 2. The number getting payment 2 is slightly lower than payment 1. This was asked in the Commons but not answered, so I hope her officials—someone behind the scenes who I would not dream of referring to—have had the opportunity to read Hansard and will therefore be able to advise on the answer to this question.

Emergency and one-off measures have their place, but they really do not give people the security they need or match the increases in costs that people are facing on the ground. The truth is that we came into these cost of living increases after years of underwhelming growth and savage social security cuts, which left our system simply unfit for purpose. I will mention just the two-child limit, the benefit cap, the bedroom tax, inadequate help with housing and council tax, and repeated real-terms cuts to universal credit and legacy benefits, as detailed by my noble friend Lady Lister.

I am glad that the Government have finally been dragged, kicking and screaming, into recognising the extent of need out there. But we now need a long-term plan to rebuild social security, grow our economy, sort out our labour market and raise living standards so that we can lift people, from children to pensioners, out of poverty. Surely we can all agree with that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

On the impact of the cost of living crisis on poverty, the latest available poverty statistics cover 2021 and projecting what has happened to poverty since then is complex and inherently speculative. It requires projecting how incomes will change for every individual in society; these are affected by a huge range of unknown factors. However, the Treasury published distributional analysis showing that the full package of measures announced on 26 May is well targeted at households on low incomes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, asked why we waited so long to bring the measure forward. As the Chancellor set out, by waiting to know what the autumn and winter energy price cap is, we were better able to design and scale our policies across the package.

I am conscious that I have not answered every question—oh, here we go.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

Essentially, noble Lords all around the House have said, “This system is so simple but it’s creating rough justice. What will the Minister do?” The Minister’s answer is, “Give us rough justice, but that’s because the system is so simple”. All that everybody has asked today is, does the Minister understand that lots of people will miss out and others will get much less than they need? Are the Government going to even begin to think about addressing that in some way to mitigate it—yes or no?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

I cannot accurately answer that question because I honestly do not know, but I do know that, all the way through Covid and this cost of living crisis, the Government have responded at different times to issues raised in relation to additional support. All I can say is that I do not see that changing. I am sorry but I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Baroness the answer she wants, although I am quite sure that the Government will want to—I see that the noble Baroness is standing up; would she like to speak again?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

No.

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

We will have to invent a board game for the Chamber. I know that I have not answered some questions, and I am sorry, but time is marching on. I will endeavour to write to all noble Lords whose questions I have not answered and to those to whom I have promised to write.

This Bill will enable the Government to provide support to families most in need across the country. I thank all noble Lords again for their contributions. As ever, I would be happy to speak to any noble Lord who wants to discuss particular issues further and, as ever, my door does not know how to close; it is open.

Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill [HL]

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

3rd reading
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill do now pass.

At Second Reading, all who spoke acknowledged the importance of our social security system providing support as quickly as possible for those who are nearing the end of their lives. This Bill will ensure that more people in their final year of life can access the benefits for which they are eligible in a fast-tracked and simplified way. It is right that the Government are making eligibility changes for this fast-tracked access, so that those expected to live for 12 months or less, rather than the current six months, can benefit. This Bill will mean that thousands more people at the end of their lives will be able to access benefits earlier than they currently do. It will also result in a consistent end-of-life definition being used across health and welfare services in England and Wales, which will be more easily understood by clinicians and end-of-life charities.

I thank all noble Lords for their support in ensuring that this Bill passes through the House quickly. Clearly, we all recognise the significant positive impact this change will have for people who are nearing the end of their lives, and their families. I was also very grateful to noble Lords who engaged with me so constructively while the Bill was passing through this House. Several noble Lords signalled their overall support while also raising important issues, which I will ensure are taken into account as we work to implement the changes that we progress.

I end by paying tribute to all the campaigners and charities that have worked in this area; their support has been crucial in reaching this point and I am sure that all noble Lords join me in recognising the admirable support they provide people nearing the end of their lives.

The Social Security (Special Rules for End of Life) Bill will provide thousands more people with vital financial support, so that they can worry a little less about their finances and focus more on sharing the valuable time they have left with the people who matter to them the most.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her remarks and thank all noble Lords who participated in this Bill at the previous stage. It is a short Bill, but one which will have real benefits to people who have been told they have less than 12 months to live. The House can do few things that matter more than to make people’s final months easier than they might otherwise be. The change is long overdue, and we are very pleased to support it. Once again, I commend Marie Curie, MNDA and all the charities that have campaigned to get to this point.

We chose not to table amendments to the Bill, even though I would have liked the opportunity to explore some of the issues about the support available to people nearing the end of their life. However, it is really important to get this onto the statute book as soon as possible because, at the moment, some benefits are available only to those with six months to live and others are for those with 12. That is confusing for clinicians and patients, so we want to support this getting there as fast as possible. I hope that the Minister can assure the House that the Government will reward our restraint by ensuring that the Bill gets through the other place before the Summer Recess.

Since we are not having a Committee or Report stage, I would like to ask two quick questions, of which I have given notice to the Minister. She is aware that various stakeholders, while supporting the Bill, had argued for a more open-ended approach than the one the Government chose to take. This Bill will allow special rules awards to be made for three years, whereas the Scottish Government have taken a different, more open-ended approach. Can the Minister assure the House that the Government intend to evaluate the effectiveness of the approach they have chosen to take in this Bill? Will they take advantage of the opportunity afforded by devolution to compare their approach with that taken by the Scottish Government, and implemented only recently?

In that vein, I ask about the success metrics for this policy change. Will the Minister’s department monitor whether more people are able to fast-track their claims? Will they monitor if fewer people are dying before their claims for benefits under the normal rules have been cleared? That has been an issue; it takes so long to process claims for PIP that people are dying before their claims are processed. Will the Government monitor if claimants find the process easy to manage?

I would like to express my thanks to the Minister and her officials for involving us, and to colleagues for their thoughtful contributions. We send the Bill to the Commons with our full support, and we wish it Godspeed.

Cost of Living: Pensioners

Baroness Sherlock Excerpts

Thursday 26th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

As I said earlier, since 2010, the state pension has risen by £2,300 in cash terms and the full-year basic state pension is now over 45% higher than in 2010.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, I am glad the Chancellor is finally putting something on the table, although we do not know what yet, but does the Minister agree that the process is not great? The Spring Budget was only two months ago. We begged the Chancellor to do more on the cost of living and he ignored us. We suggested a windfall tax and the Prime Minister ridiculed it. The Government did not have to legislate for the biggest real-terms cut in the value of the state pension for 50 years. We do not yet know what the Chancellor is going to do, but the rumours always appear to be about one-off payments. Even if there is something to tide people over, it will not deal with the collapse in the standards of living. Why have Ministers ruled out bringing forward pension and benefit increases? Does the Minister accept that prices are unlikely suddenly to slump again but, if they did, upratings would pick that up next time round anyway? Or will the Chancellor be back here again in a few months?

[Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con)]

If the noble Baroness does not mind, I do not agree that the Chancellor has ignored things. He has had to deal with a pretty difficult set of circumstances. Due to legacy benefits, we can do an uprating only once a year, the reasons for which all noble Lords know. Since 1987, we have consistently used the September inflation figure and that will continue.