Local Government Bill [HL]

Baroness Shephard of Northwold Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2010 Lords Chamber

My noble friend’s amendment asks that we have what, when it suits your Lordships, we all call for—post-legislative scrutiny, to see whether value for money in terms of cash and effective delivery of services have been achieved by this refusal to go ahead with reorganisation and the submitting of partnership arrangements in its place. We will come back to this on later amendments. What have noble Lords opposite to fear? What have we got to lose? If they are right, the scrutiny will reveal that. If they are wrong, the scrutiny will give us the opportunity to correct the situation and recoup the savings in future. The refusal of noble Lords opposite to support such an amendment shows that they wish to conceal rather than reveal. I think that is very regrettable.

[Baroness Shephard of Northwold]

My Lords, I would like to declare an interest: I am a lifelong resident of Norfolk. I have also been a Norfolk county councillor, a Norfolk county councillor representing a part of Norwich, and I am a deputy lieutenant for the county.

The words of the noble Lord, Lord Tope, struck a great chord with me. He said that it was time for us to move on from the wrangles and arguments about unitary status for Norwich and Exeter. He also said that the Bill is the result of a manifesto commitment by the Conservative and the Liberal Democratic Parties, not an honour accorded to the legislation brought forward by the previous Government. I often chided them in this Chamber for omitting from their 2005 manifesto something that was obviously so very important to them. What an omission.

However, we do need to move on. The people of Norfolk and Norwich, and doubtless of Exeter and Devon, have been in organisational uncertainty for far too long—for four and a half years, I think. They have many pressing concerns. While the Committee will of course wish to give full and careful attention to the amendments before us today, it should be our aim to end the uncertainty and make progress with the Bill.

I also had sympathy for another comment from a noble colleague on the Liberal Democrat Benches—which was, given that the orders brought forward by the previous Government have been quashed, the position in both counties and both cities is as it was before. Therefore, why pick them out for special treatment and ask them to produce special reports on their financial arrangements?

Of course, it is pretty ironic that we should be asking for any kind of financial information involving Norwich City Council. After all, Hazel Blears, when she was Secretary of State, rejected its case for becoming a unitary authority on financial grounds. She said that she had concerns about the reliability of the financial data submitted in the proposal. Not only that, the proposal was rejected a second time by the Government’s own—

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

The information submitted to Hazel Blears came from a Lib-Dem minority council.

[Baroness Shephard of Northwold]

That is as may be, but the Government’s own Boundary Committee produced another report on the Norwich proposal. It said:

“While we have given Norwich City Council every opportunity to demonstrate to us the affordability of the two-unitary pattern, we consider that there remain a number of significant risks to the financial case set out by the Council”.

I am not sure, on a number of grounds, that there is any purpose at all in supporting the amendment. I repeat that it is regrettable that there should be at this stage yet another attempt to prolong the organisational uncertainty caused by the previous Government in Norfolk and Devon.

[Lord Burnett]

My Lords, I should declare that I live in Devon, I have a farm in Devon, and I own property also in Exeter. The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, opened by asserting that value for money is at the heart of the Bill. It is certainly a major factor. I hope that my noble friend the Minister can give us a breakdown of the costs to Exeter and Norwich of becoming unitary authorities. It would be extremely helpful to have some sort of validation for what we believe would be extravagant and reckless costs incurred if the previous Government’s legislation were to be implemented.

There would be a loss of economies of scale by establishing new offices, new IT systems and new directors of numerous departments for highways, social services, education and children—all with support staff, all of whom would have pensions, and with all the attendant bureaucracy. I hope that my noble friend can give details of those costs. The country is facing huge debts, as the previous Government knew full well in February and March. Today the Independent sets out what the Office for National Statistics says our underlying debt is. This endeavour for unitary status for Exeter and Norwich is an act of financial recklessness, and I hope the Minister can explain the fundamental flaw in the previous Government’s legislation.

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[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, I certainly accept that the High Court judge has ruled that the proceedings of the Secretary of State, as advised by DCLG, were to be quashed. I do not challenge that for a moment. However, I remind the noble Lord, if he looks at the judgment, although we do not have the full transcript, that on appropriate advice—I expect that such advice to a Minister would come only from the department—a letter in December or January would have met the judge’s concerns and the orders would not have been quashed. Alternatively, if the Boundary Committee had reported on time, which it failed to do, there would have been enough time for a quick consultation which, again, the judge says would have met his concerns and the orders would not have been quashed.

So let us not suggest that my right honourable friend in the other place, Mr John Denham, was somehow acting in an inappropriate way. He followed the appropriate procedures which were then held by the judge not to have properly taken into account the need to advise the four authorities of the additional criteria of economic recession and Total Place of which they should have been aware before the Secretary of State proceeded with his orders. That is all. He did not do that. The department failed to send out a letter and he failed to have time for that consultation. That is what happened and therefore there is no—I repeat, no—moral or legal impropriety to be associated with my right honourable friend in the other House.

[Baroness Shephard of Northwold]

Does the noble Baroness accept that the former Government were very well warned about the implications for local elections of the way that they were handling these orders and the timetable adopted? Part of the report of the Merits Committee—chaired, I believe, by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser—pointed out with considerable seriousness that the timing of the orders would put candidates in a difficult position, and such uncertainty is generally undesirable. I am sure that the noble Lord will remember the exact wording.

There were similar strictures from the JCSI, which also said that the “unexpected use of power” was the cancelling of the city council elections due to be held on 6 May. The committee’s report stated:

“If the court decides that the decisions to implement the unitary proposals were flawed, it will be too late to restore the elections which will have been cancelled”.

Does the noble Baroness accept that even for the previous Government that was warning enough?

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

My Lords, such warnings had effectively occurred on all the previous JRs—I should note that the noble Baroness did not take part in those debates. We have had something like six or eight rounds of councils becoming unitary authorities, which for the most part had the full support of Members of this House, and at each stage—

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[Lord Howarth of Newport]

The noble Baroness is entitled to her view. If the Government, who could do so, will not restore order to the chaos that the court has left behind, will they at least pay the costs which CLG policy has imposed on Norwich and Exeter? They are authorities with very small budgets—so small that they cannot afford to appeal against the judicial review—and the Government are driving them into deeper poverty by their decision to freeze council tax.

[Baroness Shephard of Northwold]

I apologise to the noble Lord for intervening again—he has accepted interventions with great grace—but I ask him to consider how the mess was made. I ask him to consider also that Members opposite were warned what might happen if the orders were quashed. I quote from the debate in this House on 22 March when his noble friend Lord McKenzie was asked whether it would result in electoral chaos if the orders were quashed. The noble Lord replied:

“In relation to the elections that did not take place, the councillors would cease to hold office as a result and vacancies would have to be filled in the normal course of events”.—[Official Report, 22/3/10; col. 827.]

That could, of course, have been prevented. I do not recall and Hansard does not record the noble Lord or the noble Baroness protesting about the nature of that response from the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on that day.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

It is always a pleasure to take an intervention from the noble Baroness. She has held elected office in Norfolk for many years and I am sure that she is concerned that the people of Norfolk should be extricated as best they can be from the mess in which they find themselves. Whether the mess was caused by the previous Government or this Government or the High Court has been debated up hill and down dale. It is not particularly profitable to return to that. We are faced with the practical problem of how to restore order to this chaotic situation in the best interests of local democracy.

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[Earl Cathcart]

We may be splitting hairs, but he lives in outer Norwich. In any case, I think that there is city council representation on the police authority. The amendment is extraordinary in that no other council is required to report in this way through the Secretary of State. It is also unnecessary, because all the things for which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is calling already happen.

[Baroness Shephard of Northwold]

Does my noble friend not agree that the force of this amendment is to ask the Government to get Norwich City Council and Norfolk County Council to get on? Is that not rather overegging the power of the state? I hope that the opposition spokesman will bear that in mind when summing up.