Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts

Wednesday 7th December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, I think we need to be clear that my noble friend Lady Thornton’s Motion is simply for this House to express its regret. It is not a fatal Motion but an opportunity to express a view.

I have to say, and this is rare, that I disagree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams; indeed, this may be one of the first times I have done so when not sitting where the noble Earl, Lord Howe, now sits. The whole purpose of the Information Commissioner is that he is charged with looking at the most delicate and difficult issues and seeking to come to a balanced view on whether the public interest points in one direction or another. It is clear that both parties have an opportunity to appeal if they disagree with him, but I hope that Members of this House, if they have had an opportunity to read the commissioner’s decision, will have found it sound, well argued and balanced. So we have a well argued, balanced view from the Information Commissioner that he believes, having had the advantage of looking at the documents, that the risk register would enable this House to better scrutinise the Bill to the effect of helping us to make a better Bill for the people of our country.

I agree with those who say that this opportunity has to be sparingly used, and it is clear that the commissioner agrees. This will not open the floodgates, which it sounded as if the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, was suggesting would happen if we agreed to this Motion of Regret. It is clear that the National Health Service is dearer to the people of our country than almost any other institution, so this touches every single citizen. Be they a baby or a person in their third age, it is of equal importance. If we compare it to the importance of the third runway at Heathrow, I hope that the House will think the NHS is a tad more important. Notwithstanding the difference in importance and, as my noble friend Lady Thornton made clear, the great reluctance from my own Government—it took over a year—we gave way, because it was right and proper to do so and there appeared to be an overwhelming public interest. If there was an overwhelming public interest in that case, how much more is there an overwhelming interest in this?

I suggest to the House that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is right that this goes to our power and ability to properly scrutinise the Bill. I therefore invite your Lordships to join my noble friend in gently saying to the much beloved noble Earl, Lord Howe, that this is may be a moment when he has to take a message back to his department and say, “Can this not be released?”. If it is as cogent, sound and well placed as the Government believe it is, surely that will only persuade those of us who have anxieties and assist in our scrutiny.

[Lord Warner]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene but it is a Motion of Regret, and one element of the regret the House would express would be regret for the position the noble Earl has been put in. Much of our debate so far on this Bill has been on the basis of how it would work in practice and how things would happen on the ground. I suspect there is a lot of information about how things would work in practice in the risk register. My concern is that the noble Earl is being put in a very difficult position and at risk of misleading the House—I am not saying he has; I am not saying he has not—as he has been put in a position where, because he is unable to use that information, he may be forced to hedge his bets to reassure the House on some of the practical issues. I hope that is not the case and he has not been put in that position, but we need to be sure and I hope he can give us some reassurances.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd November 2011 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, this has been an excellent debate. It has proved one thing in my mind: an issue of this importance for the Bill—the overarching duty of the Secretary of State for the NHS—has benefited enormously from having a Committee of the Whole House to consider it. Without unnecessarily detaining the Committee, I hope it will be helpful if I say something on the record about each amendment.

I begin with Amendment 3, tabled by my noble friend Lady Williams, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and Amendment 5, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Both amendments would have the effect of restoring the Secretary of State's current duty to provide services in Section 1 of the National Health Service Act. There has been extensive discussion of this both today and at Second Reading, so I shall not recap all the arguments. The core argument is that the duty to provide no longer reflects the practical reality of how NHS services are delivered or our proposals for the Secretary of State's functions in the new system.

Before I explain further, I should make clear that we are now discussing the Secretary of State's relationship with NHS services rather than his duties in relation to public health, where his direct responsibilities for provision remain firmly in place. In that context, I refer noble Lords to Clause 8 of the Bill. While I understand that many people are attached to wording that dates back to the founding Act of 1946, it is now more than 20 years since the Secretary of State had any direct responsibility for the provision of services. Only a tiny minority of NHS services—those still provided by PCTs —are carried out under the Secretary of State's delegated function of providing services. In future, all NHS services will be provided by NHS trusts or foundation trusts, both of which have their own self-standing powers to provide services and do not rely on the Secretary of State's duty to provide under Section 1(2), or by independent providers. The Secretary of State will have no powers to provide NHS services. That is the reality.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and to my noble friends Lord Newton and Lady Cumberlege for their persuasive arguments articulating the need to reflect this reality in legislation. As my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay helpfully explained, the Secretary of State has never had an unqualified duty to provide services; he has had a duty to provide or secure the provision of services. In recent years he has relied on the latter part of that duty to fulfil his functions, while the former part has ceased to have any practical relevance. I hope that that answers the question posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jay.

There is another reason why it would be wrong to reinstate the duty on the Secretary of State to provide. Under the legal framework of the Bill, the Secretary of State no longer possesses powers to direct others to provide services. Therefore, unless we were to re-impose a system of regulations or directions by which the Secretary of State could delegate his duty to provide and control its exercise, which would risk replicating the micromanagement of the status quo, it is hard to see how this legal obligation to provide services could be fulfilled. For obvious reasons, it would be undesirable to create a situation in which the Secretary of State provided services himself. Also, in practice he would lack the capacity to do so, for example in terms of staff and facilities.

Instead, the duty we propose in the Bill is a more accurate reflection of what Ministers do. In line with policy that has evolved over two decades, the Secretary of State will not provide services or directly manage providers; nor will he have the powers to do these things. Instead, providers will be regulated independently. Rather than intervening in day-to-day decisions by local providers, the Secretary of State will have powers to hold to account the regulators, Monitor and CQC, for the way that they are performing their functions, and powers to hold the NHS Commissioning Board to account for the way that services are commissioned. In other words, the Secretary of State—

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, I hesitate to intervene on the noble Earl, who knows I hold him in the highest possible esteem, but I think he is now treading on some contentious legal issues. Bearing in mind the wonderful consensus that we have now reached, I would just ask him to consider whether, at this stage, some of those issues are really helpful because the noble Earl will know that the Secretary of State does, by his servants, agents or otherwise, provide services and, indeed, there have been times when there has been a pandemic when the Secretary of State has had to make such provision. These are contentious issues which I am sure could intrigue us for many hours, but since we have happily come to the conclusion that we have had a surfeit of such happiness and wish to go forward, I gently say to the noble Earl that this might be a moment when we could swiftly do that.

[Lord Lester of Herne Hill]

My Lords, I would not have intervened otherwise, but I respectfully disagree with what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, has just said. I am finding it very helpful to listen carefully for this reason: it seems to me that the Secretary of State must have a duty to secure the provision, as has been said by the Minister, for the purposes of giving effect to our international treaties, including those on human rights. Therefore, what he is saying at the moment is very important to me in trying to see how one can get wording that will include that as well.

Health and Social Care Bill

Baroness Scotland of Asthal Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords, with the leave of the House I would like to speak in the gap. Your Lordships will be relieved to know that I will be very brief.

I have had the privilege of listening to this debate for much of yesterday and most of this morning. It is clear that it is one of the highest quality debates in which we have had the privilege of participating in this Session or indeed for a number of Sessions that I have been privileged to sit in your Lordships' House. Rarely have I heard the level of concern, commitment and indeed love for any particular institution. It is clear that the NHS is loved: not just valued, but genuinely loved.

The issues therefore that the House has been grappling with in many ways surround some of the legal consequences of the changes that we are minded to make. Those are difficult and challenging issues. Your Lordships will know that I sat where the noble Earl, Lord Howe, is sitting for many years. Therefore, it is my estimation that this difficulty is likely to take a great deal of time on the Floor of your Lordships' House. I hear with great care the powerful statement made by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, that we can deal with this in our normal way and that it is part of the raison d'être of this House. I understand why he says that, but, frankly, I disagree. There will be a level of acuity that we will have to address to this particular issue that will be quite difficult to do on the Floor of the House.

We need calm, we need sagacity and we need careful contemplative consideration. That is often done away from the public eye and the public glare so that people can say what they genuinely think in a way that will benefit this House. We wish the issues between us to be narrowed so that we can focus only on those things with which we have to deal. I respectfully suggest to the House that that could be more conveniently, effectively and critically dealt with to the benefit of this House’s debate and much more importantly to the benefit of the people of our country, who will be listening with real anxiety about what this House does. It would be easier to deliver what our country needs if we entrust that duty to a Select Committee which we know will have the commitment and belief of all of us if we give them that opportunity. I therefore ask the House to consider very carefully whether we would not be better placed to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lords, Lord Owen and Lord Hennessy.