Social Care (Local Sufficiency) and Identification of Carers Bill

Baroness Primarolo Excerpts

Friday 7th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

It is worth noting that if Labour Members were so committed to the Bill, they would have been able to get 100 Members here to support a closure motion. Alternatively, they could move a motion that would force an hon. Member to bring their speech to an end, but they have not asked to use either of those mechanisms.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. Actually, the speech of the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) could be terminated only if the occupant of the Chair—myself—told him to resume his seat because of tedious repetition. Whatever hon. Members might think of his contribution, he has not got to that point. I would be grateful if we could allow the hon. Gentleman to continue his speech so that others may then participate.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me make a further quick point about the statistics that I was citing. The largest single barrier to employment that was highlighted—by 63% of respondents—was a lack of suitable local job opportunities, so an area’s prevailing employment market is obviously pre-eminent when determining whether a carer or disabled person is able to get into the workplace.

Clauses 1 to 3 would impose a sufficiency duty. The explanatory notes state that the duty

“goes beyond the existing duties and focus of local authorities which are only on those for whom they have direct responsibility—disabled people and carers who meet eligibility criteria and who do not exceed means-testing thresholds. There are currently no duties on local authorities to assess or address supply of non-statutory services for individuals privately purchasing care, by encouraging the development of new services.”

The notes go on to say:

“This clause would ensure that local authorities build a complete and accurate picture of the services needed, provided and purchased in their area.”

It would have been helpful if this duty could have been road-tested somewhere on a trial basis. There could perhaps have been a pilot before the Bill was introduced.

Clause 1(2) states that in discharging the sufficiency duty a local authority must have regard to statutory guidance issued by the Secretary of State. It might be expected that such guidance would clarify the terms necessary to determine what amounts to compliance with this sufficiency duty. The explanatory notes helpfully suggest:

“Placing a strategic duty on local authorities to ensure adequate social care would mean local authorities need to assess the care available in their area looking at the supply and demand of care and the affordability, accessibility and quality of provision. They would also need to identify gaps in provision and how these will be addressed. Local authorities would work in partnership with local providers to assess how services could support disabled people and carers to work, where appropriate.”

I will skip a large part of my prepared notes because, as we have heard this morning, where there is a difference between this Bill and the Government’s Bill, the Minister will look at trying to ensure that that requirement is included in the Bill.

The explanatory notes do not tell us the likely cost for every local authority to undertake the assessments that the Bill requires, and that is one of its principal problems. We have no idea of the cost of carrying out an assessment of the social care needs of disabled people and carers in any given area, which is why I suggested that a pilot project might have given us some idea of the likely cost.

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[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I have been following very closely what the hon. Gentleman has been saying for the past hour. I have been able to do that because much of it is in the House of Commons research paper on the Bill. I sincerely hope that he is not just taking quotes verbatim from that. If he is, as he knows, he will be falling foul of Standing Order No. 42. Perhaps he can therefore assure me that in continuing his remarks I will not be able to read them first in this document.

[Mr Nuttall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have indeed been helped by the Library’s document, which is extremely useful in analysing the Bill.

I will move on, if I may. As I understand it, there is nothing to prevent local authorities from carrying out the various actions proposed by the Bill, so it might be worth asking why they are not already going down that route.

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[Barbara Keeley]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Is it not now the case that the hon. Gentleman is departing too far from the Bill’s content? I do not think that a discussion of the website of the Princess Royal Trust for Carers has anything to do with this Second Reading debate.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

This is a matter for the Chair. There is an argument that reference to the trust’s details is relevant to the Bill. The trust is also identified clearly in the House of Commons research paper.

Although this is not on a point of order, while I am on my feet I remind the hon. Member for Bury North (Mr Nuttall) that, in principle, it is not permitted to read a speech in the Chamber. It is permissible to refer to notes and read short extracts from documents, but I think that he is stretching that widely now. He is in order and I hope that he will stay in order. I am sure that he is about to conclude to allow others to speak.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am about to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not going to go into the website in detail. I pay tribute to all those who help run the Bury carers centre and the Bury Crossroads group in my constituency. Their details can be accessed through the website. They provide enormous help for carers in need of help, advice and assistance in my constituency.

As I said at the outset, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South should be commended for bringing this issue to centre stage. I am sure that every hon. and right hon. Member has nothing but praise for the army of carers in this country who look after loved ones. The Bill is a genuine attempt to improve the lot of carers, but I fear that there are dangers associated with it. We have to be careful how we use scarce resources; I do not want them to be diverted away from front-line services.

The consultation period on the Government’s draft Care and Support Bill is now open until 19 October. It is a substantial draft Bill, with 83 clauses and 8 schedules. I hope that the promoters of this private Member’s Bill will take advantage of the consultation to suggest how the draft Bill could be amended and improved. The Minister has also given an undertaking my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury. I will conclude now, because I want to hear from the Front-Bench representatives and other Members, so that this can be a good, wide-ranging debate.

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[Barbara Keeley]

I welcome what the Minister says, and it would help me and the organisations and individuals who have worked with me on the Bill if he confirmed it in writing. Opposition Members do not want a plethora of duties. The Bill, in imposing duties on local authorities, might be a little too extensive, but it contains two important points that must be taken forward. The first is to have a picture of sufficiency and not to have to do everything through freedom of information requests, which might require local authorities to go a bit further than they currently do. Secondly, although there is some wonderful practice among health professionals in identifying carers, we need to go further to ensure that health bodies understand that they must have policies in place. We need to do more than just encourage a few champions to take that forward. They are the people who will have the best picture of families and the caring situations of young carers. They are the only ones who can do it. I have wonderful practice in my constituency, as well as places where it is not happening at all and people are left to their own devices. Out of everything in the Bill, those are the two points that are important to take forward. One is—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I think the Minister gets the point.

[Norman Lamb]

There is a degree of overlap on the sufficiency issue. I commit to discussing with the hon. Lady whether we have the framework right in the Government draft Bill or whether it could be improved—let us have that discussion. I will seek to address in my remarks the interesting philosophical argument about how best to approach identification, but parts of her Bill go beyond the responsibilities of my Department. To be clear, I am happy to engage with other Ministers to seek to address some of the issues she raises and I will maintain a dialogue with her on that.