Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006 Committee Report

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, like other members of the Select Committee, I add my thanks for the skills of our chairman: we are indeed fortunate to have his expertise, his passion and his good-natured chairmanship. As the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, both alluded to, it is not always the easiest job to chair Members of this House, and I thank him for it. I will also say how appropriate the title of the report is: indeed, the countryside is at a crossroads and it is important that in this House we learn the lessons of the past as we look to the future. I will be brief because I wish to cover an issue that has been very ably addressed by others, including the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I assure the House that I will not repeat the points he made; I have a number of additional points on the issue of the governance gap to pick up.

As noble Lords can see, the report recognises that a governance gap will be in place when we leave the European Union and very strongly supports the creation of the new environmental body that the Government have consulted on. As other members have said, that consultation is weak in a number of areas. There has been some tightening of commitments and Members in both this House and the other place should take credit for the fact there has been some tightening through the process of the EU withdrawal Bill, with the body now being given the power to initiate legal proceedings and to list the environmental principles in legislation. But I will highlight four areas where I think there are still weaknesses and where the committee’s report shows what I think is the correct way forward.

The first is an issue that the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, did address and which I, as a former chief executive of the CPRE, feel particularly strongly about: the consultation on the environmental body does not guarantee a complaints process for the general public on the future of environmental protection. We have seen in the past how important citizens’ rights to seek environmental justice have been in improving the quality of our environment, in particular air quality. If we are going to have this environmental body, we need the public to see what is being undertaken and to feel that they have a stake in their environment. It is so important to them and if there is not a complaints process for the general public, it will undermine any commitments the Government might make. The Government’s consultation does not strongly back a complaints process—that is a fundamental flaw.

My second point concerns an issue that has not been raised so far by other noble Lords: the scope of the new environmental body. The consultation limits who is subject to the enforcement and commitments therein. Our committee decided that it should be not only central government but all public authorities. We took advice from a number of individuals. I will quote just one, who said that the new body should,

“certainly … hold public bodies other than Government to account”.

That evidence was from Secretary of State Michael Gove to the House of Commons Environmental Audit Committee in November 2017. So clearly the government consultation is stepping back from the Secretary of State’s own commitments, quoted in our report and made in another place late last year. Might the Minister be tempted to say whether he stands by the wording in the government consultation or agrees with his own Secretary of State?

Thirdly, there is no commitment in the consultation to set out the environmental goals and objectives in legislation, yet all Members of this House, of whatever political party, have all seen how important it was to set out goals in the Climate Change Act to ensure that there was cross-party support as the issue moved forward. That is a singular failing. The committee felt that it was really important to set targets for nature in legislation. It is something that the Liberal Democrats feel very strongly about and had as a manifesto commitment in 2017.

Fourthly, I strongly echo the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Old Scone, on the need for independence and sufficient resources for the new body. Our committee saw from so many examples, particularly when looking at Natural England, that there is a real need for clarity on independence, as well as sufficient resources. Frankly, it is a load of old guff that the Government did not feel able to set out in the consultation some clarity on the two key issues of how the new body will be independent and sufficiently resourced. We know that the Government do this. Let us not forget, when the Water Bill was going through this House and the Government committed to undertake a consultation on the very tricky and controversial issue of water abstraction, they then produced an extremely good consultation document, setting out at great length two alternative proposals for the route they might go down. It was a very controversial issue and the Government set out the ways forward in their consultation document with a great deal of clarity. One can assume only that the Government have not set out the key issues of how the body will be independent and sufficiently resourced because they think that people will not be particularly happy about where they might end up.

Finally, another issue which has not been touched on by other committee members—so I hope your Lordships will allow me a little time to address it—is the strength of the duty that all public authorities should be under when they take account of environmental principles. In our report, as our chairman rightly highlighted, we talk about the biodiversity duty and how successful it has—or has not—been. On page 55 we say that,

“the requirement to ‘have regard’ for biodiversity is weak, unenforceable and lacks clear meaning”.

Yet the Government are proposing that public authorities should only “have regard” in future as they undertake their environmental principles. That will clearly not be sufficient.

While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, that changing the wording on its own will not be enough, it is still important that the wording is tight and can form a bedrock so that when this body holds public authorities to account, the public authorities know what they have to do. If we do not have that, we will not be replicating the current status of environmental protection that we have in all EU treaties, and if the wording is not strengthened it will be far too easy for environmental protections to be subjugated to other competing calls such as those for economic growth.

The House may well wish to reflect on the problems caused for rural housing by the viability test. That has basically run a coach and horses through the requirements for rural housing—and that is exactly what will happen if the wording is so weak that public bodies have only to “have regard” for environmental protection. Without stronger wording and if we do not get it right, I am afraid that all the laudable words, particularly from this Minister—I echo the comments of others—about this Government’s intention to leave the environment in a better place will not be deliverable.

Legislative Reform (Constitution of the Council of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons) Order 2018

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Tuesday 1st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Byford (Con)]

My Lords, I very much welcome the order before us today. I declare my interest as an honorary associate member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. For many years, we have had regular discussions with members of the royal college about the unwieldiness and the way in which they have had to work in recent years. The Minister referred to the importance of the health and welfare of animals of all sizes. It really does give me great pleasure to support this order today. I was particularly pleased to read the report from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It was a well presented and helpful report that had come forward following the various consultations that had taken place.

Any of us who are involved in public life would view a council of 42 with great fear. It was something that was fairly common in those days. I belong to the Worshipful Company of Farmers, and we would look at our constitution, which would be a very similar size in the old days, and we had to say, “In this day and age, is it relevant? Can it do the job it is supposed to do? Would it not do it better with a slightly smaller and more receptive constitution?”. Today we are looking at a very important section of the profession, and I am really glad that the profession has great support. We want to make sure that we have good governance and better regulation. That would then free up the council to meet more often and to be able to do what it wants to do in a more timely fashion.

I still believe that vets have a vital role to play, not just for the welfare of the animals that they look after, but for members of the general public, who rely totally on their expertise. In this way, the royal college and the members of it are an important link. I welcome the extension of council membership to lay members and veterinary nurses.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, we on these Benches support the proposal. In the unavoidable absence of my noble friend Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, I thank the Minister most profusely for the opportunity he provided her and others last week to talk through this proposal and give some further insight into it. It is a set of proposals that are important to alleviate some of the well documented weaknesses in the governance of the RCVS in the past, and it will make an important contribution to organising an important profession in our country.

I wish to make two brief points. First, we of course support the direct elections that will be undertaken for the RCVS in future, but this is a very diverse profession. The practice in a small rural area is very different from the profession in a large urban conurbation. It would be helpful to know if the Minister could offer this House some reassurance that the breadth of experience in the diversity of the profession will be respected in the direct elections to the RCVS council that will come forward.

Secondly, there is a need for new blood. This is a profession where the pace of change is fast. Our understanding in veterinary medicine is changing and developing quickly; technology is changing our understanding of animal welfare, and animal physiology is changing fast. However, these proposals argue for a term of office of four years, which can be extended three times; then, after a period of two years, a council member may stand again. That would not necessarily be helpful in bringing new blood into any particular governing body. It may be difficult to make such a point in a House like this, where there is no democratic accountability and no limit on the term of office, but it is important that we reflect personally on the issue of the length of service. I hope that members of the council will show some restraint, so that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, just mentioned, we can ensure that both members of the public and the animals the vets serve get the members that they need of a council that upholds the honour of what is a very important profession in this country.

Local Authorities: Recycling

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, we need to use every new or modern system we can. Fly-tipping in particular is a huge point—it is disgraceful. I think there are about 628,000 instances, with household waste as well. We need to ensure that we have the right level of fines and custodial sentences. That move might be extreme for some, but the level of fines needs to be as high as it can be. Indeed, a company was fined £23,400 last week for fly-tipping in Epping Forest.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, according to WRAP’s annual tracker survey, two-thirds of households say that they are unsure how to correctly dispose of items. Does the Minister agree that significant cuts to local authority communication budgets driven by central government cuts are contributing to falling household recycling rates?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is far too simplistic to suggest that. For instance, in Richmondshire District Council, there was a 14.7% increase in recycling rates in one year; in Tameside, a 7.8% increase; and in East Riding, an 8.6% increase. This is all about increasing the amount that is recycled and separating food waste. Of course there are financial conditions, but I suggest that there are many good examples of what local authorities are doing in stressful times.

Inshore Fisheries

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I agree with a lot of what the noble Baroness says. We need to base our decisions on science. We have a responsibility under international law to have sustainable fish stocks, and I am pleased that in this country we have had some considerable successes in getting sustainable yields. The basis of this is that we have given two years’ notice that we intend to leave the London fisheries convention, which is necessary under legal advice. We now need to negotiate with our partners and friends in Europe so that, as I say, we have a sustainable fishing industry. Also, for the first time we will have the ability to decide who fishes in our waters.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, our fishing industry contributes less than 0.5% to our country’s GDP, yet it is hard to think of any industry that will be affected more by Brexit, along with the rural communities that fishermen come from. How are the Government going to guarantee that our fishermen and their industry are not used as a bargaining chip in the Brexit negotiations?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I say to the noble Baroness that the chief executive of the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations has said today that our giving withdrawal notice from the London fisheries convention,

“is welcome news and an important part of establishing the UK as an independent coastal state with sovereignty over its own exclusive economic zone”.

The noble Baroness says that the fisheries sector makes a small contribution to our GDP, but it contributes £1.3 billion to the economy, employs 34,600 people in 6,000 fishing vessels, and landed 708,000 tonnes of fish worth £775 million. To the coastal and fishing communities of this country, the United Kingdom, that is a very important consequence. I assure her and your Lordships that we will be very conscious of their interests.

Agriculture: Foreign Workers

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, from 2007 to 2013, the scheme was for Romanian and Bulgarian people who wished to come here. Obviously, there has been a scheme since after the Second World War, but that is precisely what it was. After 2013, there was full freedom of movement for those countries. There are 171,000 more EU nationals working in this country now than there were a year ago. The point is that there are many, very welcome EU nationals coming. Obviously, with the review that the Migration Advisory Committee is undertaking, we need to see what further work we need to do to ensure that we have labour to produce our very important produce.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I live in Godalming, where we have one of the largest soft fruit farms in the country, employing 2,500 people. The owner has said that the business will collapse without access to EU workers. Does the Minister agree with me that retaining access to the single market is the best way to ensure that we have a future supply of affordable homegrown soft fruits?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, what will be essential to ensure that our wonderful produce is picked is that we have the labour force to do it. That is why the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, is right: we need to review where we are, because there will be changed arrangements. Having met some people who are running a fruit farm, I am fully seized of the importance of the labour force that comes overwhelmingly from parts of eastern Europe, which we have very much welcomed and is so important in gathering in our harvest.

Air Quality

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Monday 24th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his questions. On his last question, I can say that we believe the legislative framework exists to deal with these matters, and therefore a separate clean air Act is not necessary because they can already be dealt with.

On the issues at hand, we have been advised that there are very strong requirements vis-à-vis purdah. However, I say to the noble Lord and indeed to all noble Lords that we will ensure that this short delay in the timetable will not result in a delay in the implementation of the plan. It is precisely to deal with the purdah issue, relating to both local government and the general election, that we have given the dates by which we want to publish this report. Obviously it is in everyone’s interests that we publish, and we want to work in partnership. That is why we are working with the devolved Administrations and the Mayor of London, and indeed we are working with many cities that have this acute problem which we need to address.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, this is clearly a public health crisis, with 40,000 people dying prematurely in the UK every year because of air pollution and many more suffering from respiratory and cardiovascular diseases. The reason that the Minister has given why this needs to be delayed does not stand proper scrutiny, because here we face a genuine public health crisis, which is a legitimate reason for the purdah rules to be put aside. Given that the department has shilly-shallied about producing its 25-year plan for the environment, it is very good at talking the talk on protecting the environment, but it is not good at walking the walk.

I have two quick questions for the Minister. First, does he accept that after Brexit, when we no longer have the European Union obligations, we need firm air quality targets in UK law to hold the Government to account? Secondly, what comfort can the Minister give to both parliamentarians and the public on the question that, in the absence of the European Union, there is no alternative to costly judicial reviews for the public to hold the Government to account on the crisis of air pollution?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords I do not think that the facts bear out what the noble Baroness said. In fact, it was during a Government in which her party was in coalition that £2 billion of taxpayers’ money was diverted: £400 million for ultra-low-emission vehicles, £600 million for the local sustainable transport fund, £224 million invested in cycling and more than £27 million since 2013 to retrofit and clean up more than 3,000 of the oldest vehicles. I hope that she would agree that that was a success during the time that her party was in coalition with mine. That is why £2 billion was diverted to that important subject.

On the question of how we will proceed, as I said, this is a short delay in the timetable, because we have purdah requirements. That is the advice that I have received. I fully acknowledge that this is a public health issue. That is one reason why considerable sums of money are being invested in it, why we will continue to do so and why we in the department very much want to bring forward these plans after the general election.

Recycling: Plastic Bottles

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I want to express my thanks to business across the piece for being involved in the litter strategy. One thing to come across strongly is the importance for its reputation that business sees in assisting us with recycling and with avoiding litter. I want to endorse what my noble friend has said: business is key to the success of this.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister mentioned the welcome but ambitious packaging recycling targets set in the recent Budget. Given that household waste recycling targets are going backwards, how do the Government expect to meet them?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is right that there was a slight drop, and that is why we absolutely need to do more. That is why I think the work of WRAP will be very important. But let me give some examples of where recycling is working tremendously well: South Oxfordshire District Council has achieved 66.6% household waste recycling; East Riding has achieved 66.1%; and Rochford District Council has achieved 66%. We want to raise the bar where local authorities are doing very well. That is what we want across the country.

Water Supply Licence and Sewerage Licence (Modification of Standard Conditions) Order 2017

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Thursday 9th March 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I rise merely to pursue a continuing degree of pressure on the Government not for what is in these statutory instruments but for what ought to be in them. We in Britain have a system that enables us to regulate the charges for connection—I notice that in effect it is referred to here under “Connection charges”—but connection itself is statutory. That means that even though a water company is not a statutory consultee, it can be required to provide connections when such a connection significantly overloads the provision of sewerage or allows the building of homes in places where such building should never take place.

It is some time—two years, I think—since the Committee on Climate Change sub-committee that is dealing with preparing ourselves for the immediate effects of climate change pointed out that it is an unacceptable situation that, first, the water company is not a statutory consultee and, secondly, it has to do something that is clearly contrary to our interests when it comes to flood prevention and dealing with adaptation to climate change. I know that my noble friend the Minister will say this is neither the place nor the time to do this, but if I do not go on reminding the Government that there has to be such a place and a time then it will not be done—and it needs to be done. It is a pity to take up parliamentary time for what is, frankly, a pretty unnecessary series of crossing “t”s and dotting “i”s when there is so much more to be done if we are to make the changes that the whole world, irrespective of party, religion or any other device, believes to be necessary. I am very sorry that the department has still not come forward with proposals in this area.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

I shall come to the aid of the noble Lord and say that it is an absolutely appropriate time for this to be raised. He will be aware that Defra is undertaking a review of sustainable urban drainage, so if we cannot raise this issue now in advance of the review, when can we raise it?

We have raised this issue frequently: in the Housing and Planning Act last year, when discussing automatic connection rights; and noble Lords will know that we have been addressing this issue rather more recently in the Neighbourhood Planning Bill. It is an absolutely fundamental issue that underpins not only the building of houses that are sustainable in the future but addressing the water shortages that we will face, given the challenges of climate change and population growth in the foreseeable future.

Will the Minister say a few more words about the likely timing of the department’s review to ensure that it is in advance of the Adaptation Sub-Committee’s forthcoming review in May? If it is not, that will be a seriously detrimental step. While, as the Minister said, these are small measures pertaining to delivering better solutions for our water industry, we must look at the bigger issues around automatic connection and sustainable urban drainage and, in the future—I hope this will be in the White Paper—a Bill on abstraction. If those things are not addressed, the Government are seriously failing in looking at the water challenges of the future.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I am very pleased to associate myself with the comments of both the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. They have raised a very important issue, which I know we have debated on other occasions. I would be very happy to continue to add to any pressure we can bring to get the Government to take this issue seriously. The noble Lord set out the case extremely well as to why it was such a huge urban and rural challenge in terms of planning, flood prevention, and so on. Both noble Lords made the case extremely well.

I guess it now falls to me to make some comments about the actual regulations before us, which I fear will not be as interesting. I am grateful to the Minister for setting out the purpose of the three regulations. As he made clear, they are all consequent on the Water Act 2014, which received very detailed scrutiny in your Lordships’ House. The opening up of the new non-household retail market in April 2017, and the ongoing challenges of delivering greater competition in retail water and sewerage systems, will inevitably need modification and refinement. In this context, we accept that these new regulations are both technical and necessary.

However, I have a couple of questions for the Minister. First, the water supply licence and sewerage licence orders are mainly concerned with the percentage of licensees that must agree Ofwat’s decision to amend licence conditions, as the Minister spelled out. We agree that a 20% level of objection is a reasonable requirement to trigger a referral to the CMA. However, the consultation on that regulation also flagged up some concerns about the way in which sewerage licences were to be calculated, given that there is very little metering of wastewater output from premises. I do not disagree with the rather pragmatic conclusion that in the absence of metering of sewerage, it is best to base the calculation on the clean water supply to the premises. Given that there is an overarching environmental need to encourage businesses to manage and limit wastewater, the department could do more to encourage people to manage water supply—I am talking about both clean and dirty water—and put in place more effective processes for charging for wastewater disposal in the future. There are good initiatives out there but many businesses are happy to pour very highly polluted water down the drain in large quantities.

Secondly, the water industry designated codes regulations set out the arrangements for appeals to the Competition and Markets Authority. Again, I do not disagree with the rather pragmatic approach taken in these regulations, which suggests that we need to establish a fast-track appeals process, similar to the energy code appeals. However, these are short-term pragmatic solutions that are necessary to get the new system up and running in time for the April start.

However, we need to see how the codes and appeals bed down and whether—as is often the case—their application has unforeseen consequences. I would be grateful, therefore, if the Minister indicated how the operation of these regulations, and the others to which he has referred, will be kept under review as the retail market matures. In response to the consultation on the codes, the Government said:

“It is to be expected that the regulatory structure around a healthy, well-functioning market may need to evolve when competition has become long-established”.


We agree with that, but it would be helpful if the Minister set out the process by which this evolution will be monitored and how Parliament can best be enabled to play a full role in that review. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Circuses: Wild Animals

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, wild animals are not just kept in circuses—they are still kept in homes. About 5,000 primates are kept as pets in the UK. The Primate Code was due for review in 2015. When are the Government going to get on and do it?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, there is of course legislation, and under the requirements of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act the primary focus is public safety, but clearly, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 absolutely applies. We are absolutely clear that it is not appropriate at all for primates to be kept as pets.

Air Pollution

Baroness Parminter Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I would not seek to be partisan, but perhaps I should say to the noble Lord that the dash to diesel happened under his party’s regime. That is one reason why we are now having to resolve the problem. In fact, nitrogen dioxide levels went down by 4% between 2014 and 2015, and we are seeking to continue that. However, we are retrieving a situation that the noble Lord’s party assisted in the passage of.

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us exactly which towns and cities are being affected by the reasoned opinion of the European Commission?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I have a list of 16 zones, while the five cities that we are working on as regards clean air zones are Birmingham, Leeds, Nottingham, Derby and Southampton. I should say that my honourable friend Therese Coffey has been discussing these matters with representatives from other cities because under the Transport Act 2000, local authorities can impose clean air zones if they so wish.