Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness O'Loan and Baroness Andrews

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

My Lords, at the heart of this debate is the question of safety. It is very impressive to hear all the experience around the House and I know that people shared my experience when we took the Mental Capacity Act through the House in 2005. That Act had been years in the making. It had most profound and serious consideration in this House and, most unusually, it then had post-legislative scrutiny, where we went into every aspect of the Act. The noble Baroness, Lady Browning, is quite right; there were many concerns raised about the practice and the absence of proper training, but no one, to my knowledge, challenged the definition of “mental capacity”, recognising the huge complexity of the term, the different circumstances in which it is implemented and people’s responses to it.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that we have a framework. Safety, I think, relies on and is expressed in the 20 years of practice in the way the Mental Capacity Act has been implemented and has benefitted so many. The assumption that there is mental capacity was in itself a huge and very important statement of a positive right in the law. The Bill before us is another statement of a positive right in the law, where there has not been one, and where so many people are desperate for us to find a route through this urgently.

We have the experience of that Act, the experience and expertise that this House put into reviewing that Act and confirming it with the recommended improvements, and the way the Act is understood—as my noble friend has said, not least by Chris Whitty—as well as its unknown interpretations. We have just heard about the complexity of defining “ability”. We already know of the huge, unframed and unknown complexity of creating another concept in law in the context of a Bill which, itself, has to be so carefully understood, implemented and communicated. We have to stick to what we know, even though it is still a work in progress, because it can still be improved. I hope it will be improved, in the course of this Bill. But it will be immensely dangerous, unless I hear a completely conclusive explanation as to why “ability” is better, if we were to depart from “capacity”.

[Baroness O'Loan (CB)]

My Lords, under the Mental Capacity Act, the decision is not made by one individual; the Mental Capacity Act provides for decision-making, which includes the experiences of families et cetera. It is a profound process. This is not a profound process; it provides for a doctor to make a decision about whether a person has capacity and a second doctor to sign it off. It is not the same thing at all.

I attended a meeting, as did the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, during which a doctor told a story about a patient who had signed up for assisted suicide. When the time came, he took a sip of the medicine and said, “I’m not drinking this”—upon which his family told him, “You decided you would die this day; you must do it”. He would not drink it. It took him seven days to die.

[Baroness Andrews (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is quite right, and it is a very important part of mental capacity decisions that the families are involved, supportive and completely understand the implications of what it means to have either incomplete capacity or capacity that varies from time to time. There is no reason— I will leave my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer to answer this point—why this should not be a better Bill, and maybe it can be better if we address these particular questions.