European Union

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Baroness has done a lot of work on the academic detailed background to this, which is an advantage that many of us do not have. The 55% figure, which the BBC has reported, is not in the text released by Mr Donald Tusk, so the proposal for a majority depends on how that is defined. This is a working document, not a final agreement. The noble Baroness asks a very reasonable question about how a red card system is more effective. Those on a football pitch know what happens when they have a red card.

[Baroness O’Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, first, I want to thank my noble friend for making these papers available to us. I recommend that everybody in the House get a copy of them and read them. They should read them in a spirit of tolerance—

[A noble Lord]

Oh!

[Baroness O’Cathain]

Well, because tolerance should be our reaction. The whole issue has been so hyped up that we do not know where we are. The letter by President Donald Tusk is the most generous and accommodating letter I ever expected to see from the EU. Not only that, he pays tribute to us. He says:

“To be, or not to be … that is the question”.

And:

“Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”.

The whole tenor of this letter is good. Will the Government use this to try to lower the tension between those who want to stay in and those who want to go? Let us have a period of calm.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My noble friend is absolutely right. The British public will be facing the greatest decision they have had to make in a generation, and it is right that Parliament retains its approach of careful scrutiny, which is a model in this House, through the European Union Scrutiny Committee. My right honourable friend David Lidington said that he has written to the chairs of the European Union Select Committees of each House, and he will provide them with that letter before Friday. I understand he is also offering to send a memorandum of explanation so that they can better reach their own decisions. All papers have been deposited for scrutiny—not just partially but all of them—so that we may have the measured debate my noble friend calls for.

Queen’s Speech

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Thursday 28th May 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, the gracious Speech states the following:

“My Government will renegotiate the United Kingdom’s relationship with the European Union and pursue reform of the European Union for the benefit of all member states. Alongside this, early legislation will be introduced to provide for an in/out referendum on membership of the European Union before the end of 2017”.

This morning, 11 words hit our screens—the words of that promised referendum question, namely:

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?”.

So we are now on the starting blocks. This was a manifesto commitment, and I hope that it will gain cross-party and cross-Bench support during the passage of the Bill in this House and a similar amount of support in the other House.

For the last five years the subject of the EU has been at the forefront of my work in this House, as chairman of the EU Select Committee’s sub-committee dealing with the single market, referred to by my colleague the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, in his wonderful speech. We have dealt with the single market, employment and infrastructure, and it has been a wonderful experience to be involved in the scrutiny of directives, proposals and the super information documents emanating from the EU Commission. The excellent work done by the committee members, the staff of the committee and the overall EU Select Committee make me very conscious that we are privileged with time and resources allocated to the scrutiny of EU measures and our ability to call witnesses to help us through and make us understand in much greater detail what the EU is all about, how it works and how it is fundamental to our future. There is also a serious issue of getting agreement to make changes which are not solely for the benefit of the UK but which would benefit all member states and make the EU more relevant to the wider world.

I only wish that the general public and all Members of Parliament could have such a wide breadth of knowledge as we have gained and been given. I say this because I fear there is an abundance of wrong information being repeated day after day in all branches of the media, and the chattering classes are not the only ones who get the wrong end of the stick. Mark Twain got his statement only half right when he said that those that do not engage in informed debate are uninformed and those that do are misinformed. I passionately believe that we must have a serious informed debate, and not just for politicians.

Before any date for this referendum is fixed, it is surely our duty to ensure that the voting public are clued up about the EU and the advantages of being a member. This is particularly important to the youth of this country. After all, it is their future we are proposing to change radically or sensibly. We certainly need all the time between now and 2017 rather than the suggestion by the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, that the referendum should be done and dusted in 2016.

The facts about the EU should be just as well known as any subject on the school curriculum. The problem is that the EU is boring to most people. Who wants to begin to understand economics? I say that as an economist. Who wants to delve into comparisons between growth rates in the UK and its position in the league tables of the other 27 members? Indeed, if I were uninformed, I would give up in despair that the so-called facts about our GDP that sent us into a temporary depression just a short time before polling day 21 days ago were revised upwards two days ago. Yes, I am aware of all the reasons, but does it encourage people to get more involved?

Reports on developments in Brussels are full of acronyms. Just look at one of our Select Committee reports. Each one will invariably have a page of acronyms at the back, and sometimes more than one page. Useful information produced to help us understand is almost always extremely turgid. I believe it is the complete antidote to insomnia. Is there any chance of encouraging the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 or the rest to set their most creative producers the task of dreaming up an informative, attractive, exciting format comparable to “Top Gear”, not on car crashes, but on how the EU started and why? The UK has such a good story—once we were able to convince the French that we needed to be a member, we were instrumental in transforming the whole continent in 1989, which is again a great story of UK involvement. Members of the EU need us and tell us that they need us—just visit the Baltic—and we have been at the forefront of giving a good example, endeavouring to encourage erstwhile undemocratic states with questionable judicial systems and precious little freedom of religion, speech or thought to be members of a group of nations which trade, exchange students, learn new ways of doing things and benefit from co-operating in research and development, in effect making the EU and the world a better place.

Like everything we do, say or wish for, there are always problems and/or misunderstandings, but mostly these can be ironed out by strengthening still further the links we have with all member states. What is quite extraordinary is the respect the UK engenders in the EU. We sometimes forget that although we are a relatively small country with less than 1% of the world’s population, our influence throughout the world is huge. In so many areas we are envied, not least for our system of government, the Civil Service and the judicial system, and we are admired for our universities and our culture: our literature, film, music performances and composition, visual arts and architecture. I admit that I am sometimes taken aback by the breadth of it all. To recognise the magnificence of our prowess in architecture, just go to Millau in France.

The UK has always been at the forefront of helping others, and we can certainly help some of the less fortunate states in the EU. By doing so we can help the whole, and at the same time increase our security. The UK was not part of the original European Coal and Steel Community, which led to the Common Market, but now so many want us to stay, and are very anxious about what would happen if we left. The EU was the germ of an idea of Winston Churchill, whose dream, or so we are told, was that there should never be another war on the landmass of Europe, such was the impact the horrors of two world wars had on him. Our current relationship with the EU does not work anything like it should, or could, and it needs to be changed. The problems have to be sorted out. The Prime Minister has already got to grips with that, and civil servants have produced major studies of competencies. We need to convince the other member states of the validity of our case for some change.

There is also a serious malaise in some countries whose accession we supported, which are having a very difficult time. A recent publication by the Henry Jackson Society, entitled The State of Democracy After 25 Years: Lessons from Central and Eastern Europe, details how the euphoria following the 1989 revolutions has been dissipated by the global financial crisis of 2008 and the effects are still with us. It gives chapter and verse about how the EU member states of the Czech Republic, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia have rolled back on the progress made since their accession. That is worrying, not only for the countries involved but for the security of Europe as a whole. Corruption, abuse of power, attacks on the media and increasing links with authoritarian regimes are all part of a backward slide in democracy. The EU as a whole needs to help that situation, and needs to help with the concerns in the Baltics. In fact, it needs the UK and other member states to settle unfair and unjust problems between them and ensure that Winston Churchill’s dream is fulfilled.

To sum up, we have a future in the EU, and the 11 words we heard this morning are clear and concise. We now need a full-scale campaign to ensure that by the time the referendum takes place there will be a wider and deeper level of knowledge about the EU which will eliminate all misinformation. It is so important.

Death Penalty

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Warsi]

The matter was raised during the recent visit. We made representations via my right honourable friend the Minister of State, Hugo Swire, who has responsibility for India. He raised that matter when he visited Delhi with a large delegation on 21 February. We have separately made representations through the EU, and will continue to raise through the EU-India human rights dialogue India’s use of the death penalty. Of course, the matter is extremely concerning, because there was effectively a moratorium, as the noble Lord said, between 2004 and 2012. We would like it to move back to that position, with a view to formal abolition.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, told us about the dreadful situation facing Mr Hill, and my noble friend agreed that she would “write” about this issue. However, today is 26 February and the execution is, I understand, due to take place on 1 March. Can we do something a bit more than write? Can she not make a positive statement that she is going to do something about it today?

[Baroness Warsi]

I was intending to do exactly that. My noble friend makes an important point in terms of the timing. I can assure her and the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, that I will deal with this matter when I return to my office in about half an hour’s time.

Older People: Their Place and Contribution in Society

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Friday 14th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, it is typical of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury that in his last debate in this House as archbishop he chose to move that we take note of the place and contribution of older people in society. It is a mark of the huge compassion that he has shown us for the past 10 years and we will certainly miss all his contributions, I hope only temporarily. He also knows that by making this debate his last as archbishop in this House he will get a lot of media attention, which means that he will be drawing the subject to the attention of a much wider audience than any of us could have done and bringing the subject of older people to a much higher level. I thank him.

I am probably not alone in denying that I am elderly, although by the accepted definition, through receiving a state pension, I should by now have had 14 years of learning how to knit, which I cannot do, and looking after cats, to which I am allergic. This ageism is typical of the stereotypes we apply to older people. If I seem to be taking too light-hearted an approach, I do not apologise. The elderly should, can and do have a great deal of interesting, productive, entertaining and stimulating activities. Indeed, they make me laugh quite a lot, too—sometimes not necessarily intentionally.

They have one seriously valued advantage over the majority of the population—namely, time. By mentioning that word, I realise that I open myself to all sorts of ridicule. There are many people for whom time hangs unwelcome and undervalued. Why is this? There is a multitude of reasons and most of them are recognised by most of us who have experience of involvement with people even older than we are.

Since early childhood, we have been aware and respecting of those with the experience of many years before we were born. The stories of grandmothers and great-aunts—even, in my case, a great-grandfather who was born in, I think, 1847—were spellbinding. They may be even better than those of the brothers Grimm—what an apt surname—whose anniversary is marked today. Those who told such stories must have felt wanted and we certainly valued them. They were also a safe haven for the naughty child, a facility I was in danger of overusing. This is just one area of totally mutual appreciation and, indeed, respect between the very young and the very old. Somewhere in the middle, it seems to die out a bit. It can be done; I hope it is being done; and more of it should be done.

Of course, I know that many young people live far away from the original location of their family. Sadly, many families have lost touch with one side of their family of origin and some, alas, have frequently lost touch with both sides. What an opportunity for localism! Why cannot a local town, or even parish, council organise voluntary groups of retired people who would be prepared to engage with youth and make the past live for them—in other words, doing what my great-grandfather and my grandmothers did for me? I do not want any overall process of bureaucratic nonsense entering into this. District and county councils should not be involved; they are too bureaucratic and process-driven. I am in danger of giving myself another job because the idea came to me just while I was preparing for this debate. I am not so sure that I am going to thank the archbishop for some time. While examining what could be done to make the lives of the elderly more worth while for them and valued by other generations, we should engage in activities or actions that would be of benefit to all. It could be the ultimate win-win situation.

The demographics have already been mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, but they are pretty bleak from an economic point of view—not only from the point of demands on budgets for care and health but from the point of financial planning for one’s future. There are so many experts here on these subjects, particularly on care and health, that I will not venture down that route, but I think that from time to time we ought to remind ourselves of the case for financial planning for retirement.

I am a bit of a “muddled economist” at the moment—muddled because I still cannot fathom how we allowed ourselves to get into this mess in everything dealing with finance. I know that I often shrug my shoulders and say, “Well, we’re financially all very illiterate”, but people do not realise that they are probably going to live longer than they think. However, there are some glaring facts that do not bode well for any massive improvement in financial planning for one’s future.

Last month, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the IFS, issued a report entitled Expectations and Experience of Retirement in Defined Contribution Pensions: A Study of Older People in England, but the point about “expectations and experience of retirement” is the one that I want to deal with. I am not going to refer to the substance of the report—I am sure that this will crop up in the debate—but I want to highlight two points. First, the report states:

“A surprisingly large proportion of people move towards retirement having thought very little about some of the most basic issues they will face, not least how long a period they are likely to need to support themselves for. Over half (58.5%) of individuals aged 50-64 (who are not yet retired) have never thought how many years of retirement they will have to fund”.

I repeat: they have never thought about that. Secondly, the report says:

“Even those who have given the matter some thought underestimate life expectancy on average. Although people appear to underestimate the chance that they will die young, too few expect to live until very old age—for example, only 9% of men and 10% of women expect to live until at least age 90”,

when in fact the official estimates are double the percentage in each case—namely, that 18% of men and 29% of women will live beyond 90.

Those are really quite scary statistics. As I said, on average, individuals will have a longer retirement to finance than they anticipate. This is potentially very serious, not just for the state, on which most of the burden could fall, but, even more importantly, for the individual, who lives through part of their retirement at a reasonable standard of living and then suddenly finds themselves in deep trouble.

Yesterday, another report was issued. The Social Market Foundation launched a report entitled, A Future State of Mind: Facing up to the Dementia Challenge. One fact is chilling: it is estimated that only 41% of people with dementia have been diagnosed as such. That means that 59% of the population have dementia that has not been diagnosed. In fact, this can cause many misunderstandings, and the lack of care can really endanger their standard of living, their health and their safety.

I am told that there is increasing evidence that older people can be vulnerable to elder abuse. I am afraid I have not had the time to chase up the evidence but my information comes from a very reliable source and needs to be researched. It is likely that many of these undiagnosed dementia sufferers are vulnerable. All of us need to be very careful in our attitude to older people; I have a hunch that there is probably a strong correlation between increasing age and growing sensitivity. It is too easy for those of us when, for example, interrupted in the middle of a task to be a bit hasty and say, “Oh, wait a minute, I must finish this”, not realising that this can so easily be taken as a reprimand, a slur or a sign of total exasperation. I admit that I have been culpable of this and have subsequently felt very guilty. The problem, of course, is that we are working on different agendas, one side being action-focused, the other needing love and affection. It can lead to ghastly problems.

However, even more ghastly is the likelihood of the older person feeling that he or she is a complete burden, and the consequences of that are quite terrible. Today, another relevant report is published, this time by Living and Dying Well. The report deals with research into the operation of physician-assisted suicide in Oregon and Washington. As noble Lords know, a law relating to this has been in existence for quite some time. Two-thirds of the legalised assisted suicide in Oregon has been among the elderly and a horrifying 42% of the total number of people who received prescriptions for lethal drugs expressed a feeling of being a burden on their families. If the lack of sensitivity in dealing with older people makes them feel that they are being a burden, and if physician-assisted suicide were to become law in this country, what would be the inevitable outcome? It really does not bear thinking about but we must think about it.

This debate has shown that the leader of the established Church, our very much loved, respected and admired most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, truly cares about older people and how they are respected. What an even greater legacy he will leave us if we take determined action and take a long, hard look at how we can all help each other, as ordered in the second great commandment of Christ, by loving our neighbour as ourselves and by doing something about it.

UK Industry: International Competitiveness

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Thursday 5th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness O’Cathain]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin for proposing this debate. I totally support his emphasis on exports as being of fundamental importance to our future economic health. It is rather daunting to follow the exceptional, erudite, literary, humorous and informative contributions to this debate. Now is the time to run for a quick cup of coffee.

Listening to the daily cut and thrust of Questions in this House, there is much repetition of statistics, which are not as great as one would wish. The problem, as always, is the presentation of statistics; their updating and revision deflect attention from the main picture. Serious economic conditions, of course, persist in this country and in all the countries to which we export. We have to concentrate on improving every area of our activity, leading to advances in all sectors involved in exports.

Less than two weeks ago, I took part in a discussion in Ireland with some 25 businessmen about future developments in the Irish economy and the economy of the whole EU. It was a good experience. We all know the sad saga of the monumental boom and bust that left Ireland as the first bailout candidate. Some time ago, the economic situation in that country was described to me as, “the greatest party of all time in the 1990s and the noughties, which led to the biggest hangover of all time”.

The Irish have woken up and taken the medicine, and although they are not yet out of the wood they are well on the way back. Even today, I am told, there was an auction of three-month Treasury bills for the first time since September 2010. The Irish realisation is that they have to work exceptionally hard, search the world for opportunities for export, get their financial house in order and talk the country up. For “Ireland”, say “Britain. Above all, the realisation is that we have to work exceptionally hard, search the world for opportunities for export, get our financial house in order and talk the UK up.

As my noble friend Lord Jenkin has said, we do not give our manufacturing industry enough credit. There are so many moaners and bleaters around that we are actually beginning to think that we are not good at very much. Recently, I was discussing with a friend the subject of UK trading relationships, and it was explained to me that as a trading nation we trade in three distinct groups: the allies, the US; our friends, the EU—not that the allies are not our friends; and our family, the Commonwealth. The message that I took from this is that we need to focus more strategically, not just adopt the line that everything that we produce we can export, market and sell anywhere, or that the methods of developing long-term trading relationships are ubiquitous.

Many of our businesses do not truly take on board that there are developing stars out there. We have been reminded of that today. The analogy with the celestial is not as crackpot as one might think. Through astronomy we are constantly learning about new planets and new stars. There are fascinating revelations that are a long way removed from the situation in my childhood when only eight planets were marked on our celestial globe. Taking us back to earth, yes there are more and more stars in terms of developing countries with growth rates that we can only dream about and where markets are opening up monthly. Many of these are in our own family: namely, the Commonwealth.

I do not want to put the Minister on the spot but I wonder whether he could or would be prepared to arrange a session where we can be enlightened further about the huge potential in the Commonwealth and suggest ways in which parliamentarians might be able to focus on this, rather than bleating about the awful situation that we are in. Yes, sections of world trading are suffering, including, to name but two, the eurozone and banking. However, I remind noble Lords of Oscar Wilde’s great saying:

“We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars”.

We must look forward, onwards and upwards, building on our undoubted skills, highly developed inbuilt initiative, educated workforce, record of success in many areas, not least in high-tech state of the art engineering, in world-class pharmaceuticals, in food processing, in design skills and, yes, in manufacturing. The motor industry, as I have said previously in the House, is in a better state than it has been for the past 15 years. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, has given us a brilliant exposition of UK skills and success in the life sciences industry. Our heads must be kept high. Our rating agency status is, after all, triple A. Remember that France and Italy have been downgraded.

Encouragement should be the buzzword, not dismay. It is particularly important to encourage the young—this has already been alluded to—to ignore despondency and to renew enthusiasm for the UK and its prospects. The UK accounts for about 1% of the world’s population, and we certainly punch above our weight even now. The EU accounts for about 8% of the world’s population, but the Commonwealth accounts for some 30%. What an opportunity.

The Commonwealth contains at least seven of the fastest growing highest-tech and richest world economies: India, Canada, Australia, Malaysia, South Africa, Nigeria and Singapore; and several more fast growers are coming up alongside—Mozambique, Tanzania, Ghana and Bangladesh. All are growing consumer markets with demands for our products and sources of wealth for investment here in this country. The OECD estimates that over the next 20 years almost all the growth in world trade will lie outside Europe. We have to renew our efforts now, focus on policy measures—the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made this point—and look outside Europe to ensure that we will be ready, willing and very able to participate in the growth and in helping in other ways. We can export items such as education—in training and in our wonderful technical skills, mentioned so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar.

I am not for one moment suggesting that we should ignore our friends in Europe. From time to time some of us get exasperated with overregulation and snail-pace action to remove the barriers to completing the single market. The EU is and will remain important to us, as the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, has explained. He also made a valid point about recognising serious repercussions if we unilaterally decided to leave the EU. It is important that both sides of this argument are analysed and that all the likely repercussions are aired and understood. The EU market is still the largest single market in the world and over half our exports end up there. One in 10 jobs in the UK depends on trade with the EU, which is equivalent to 3.5 million jobs.

One of the other things I learnt recently is that half of all European business headquarters are based in the UK. All this is proof positive that the EU is important. We just must work harder at it. My noble friend Lord Jenkin gave us a magnificent and specific tour d’horizon and encouraged us all. Now all of us must act.

Her Majesty the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee: Commonwealth

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Baroness O'Cathain]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will mark Her Majesty the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee year by making a commitment to celebrate and increase the United Kingdom’s involvement with the Commonwealth.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, the United Kingdom is committed to the Commonwealth and is working with the secretariat, member states and associations to modernise this 21st century network and help it realise its extraordinary potential for the direct benefit of all its members, not least the United Kingdom. This Diamond Jubilee year is also a celebration of Her Majesty’s 60 years as Head of the Commonwealth. A range of special events is being held across the Commonwealth in tribute. The recently launched Queen Elizabeth Diamond Jubilee Trust fund will benefit all Commonwealth citizens.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

My Lords, today we have had a memorable endorsement of how much the Commonwealth means to Her Majesty, who has done more than anybody else to unify it, and a reminder that it encompasses some one-third of the world’s population. Will my noble friend assure us that he will do all he can to ensure that the Commonwealth becomes much more relevant in our deliberations? It is a fast-growing, young market eager for greater involvement with us, without demanding more and more regulation.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I very much endorse what my noble friend says; she is quite right. I am very glad that she puts it in those terms. I am myself convinced that the Commonwealth network today, in both its formal and informal linkages right across the planet, is the key to huge new markets, on which our own prosperity will depend, as well as being the promoter of our values. It is also a very youthful organisation. More than 60 per cent of the citizens of the 2 billion-member Commonwealth are under 25.

European Union Bill

Baroness O'Cathain Excerpts

Tuesday 5th April 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I have just been put on the Select Committee, so I shall leave that to members such as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain, my noble friends Lord Tomlinson and Lord Richard, and other noble Lords who have been on the Select Committee for many years and know it better than me. I am just beginning to get to know it, but I am sure they can give examples.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

I remind the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, about mobile phone roaming fees, on which we did an enormous amount. Not only are people in this country glad for the work that we did that led to the changes; so are people in other member states.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

I am grateful to my noble friend—I think I can call her that in relation to that contribution, just on this occasion.

I want to finish by following the point made by my noble friend Lord Tomlinson and asking the Minister to give us a few examples of the kind of things that would be dealt with. I suspect that we will not get many examples or, if we do get any, they will not be very convincing. The Government are reluctant to give us examples because, by giving them, ridicule would be poured on the Government because they are either so irrelevant or so minor.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I think that by a “no-brainer” the noble Lord means giving the same answer to any question that is asked in any context whatsoever: that we should never have gone into the European Union. The noble Lord is fundamentally flawed in his analysis of the national interest in this area, but if I actually addressed his comments I should be making a speech about the reasons why we are in the EU. All I will say is that we have kept control of our borders. We have not joined Schengen although—and we should never forget this—we have a common travel zone with the Republic of Ireland, so we have a mini-Schengen. That is another reason why we cannot simply suppose that we can draw up the moat here and do what the devil we like; we need to discuss with the Republic of Ireland what it is doing in relation to Schengen at any one time, otherwise we should have to set up a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic or something of that sort, which would have all kinds of consequences that we would not want to contemplate.

I mention this to the noble Lord merely because, while I was not very optimistic that I would persuade him about anything, these matters are extremely complex and we cannot act as if we are in isolation in this world. There is a whole range of interdependencies—I was going to say “interdependabilities”—that we have with countries that surround us. That is a natural part of things and we should not reject it. We should be prepared to come to sensible, common-sensical, mutually advantageous arrangements with our partners on a pragmatic basis and we should not cut ourselves off from the possibility of reaching agreement with them—but that is exactly what the Bill does.

What would happen if there were a pragmatic, sensible solution of this kind dealing with, say, provisions concerning passports, identity cards, residence permits and so forth? The British Minister would be paralysed and would not be able to take part in the discussion at all. If the British Minister even started entering the discussion, he would immediately be guilty of bad faith. Everyone around the table would say, “This guy’s not serious; he’s not for real. Il n’est pas sérieux. He’s not going to have a referendum on this but he can’t agree it without a referendum, so why’s he sitting in the room at all? What’s this guy doing wasting our time?”. No one would be so rude and undiplomatic as to say that out loud, but that would be the effect. We would be sending Ministers to Brussels to find themselves in that extremely embarrassing situation. Do we really want to conduct our international relations, let alone those with such important partners and neighbours as our fellow members of the EU, on that basis? It is extraordinary.

Let us look at police co-operation, covered by Article 87(3). It does not need very much imagination, for people who have had some experience of public life like ourselves, to know that out of the blue you can suddenly have a very nasty threat. It can be something to do with terrorism, and clearly we are all concerned about that; there is a Bill going through the House at the moment. I sit on a Joint Committee with the House of Commons examining the contingent terrorist detention Bill, as noble Lords will know. We are rightly concerned that something will happen out of the blue. I will give way to the noble Baroness; I am just finishing my sentence.

[Baroness O'Cathain]

I thank the noble Lord for giving way. As a very interested observer in this debate, I would just like to know what the noble Lord’s latest comments have to do with the amendment. Surely we need just to get through this and see how we feel about it rather than have a great long diatribe about what might happen if we did not do anything else. His comments have nothing at all to do with this amendment.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

I am afraid that the noble Baroness is completely mistaken, as they have very much to do with the amendment. The amendment would have the effect of taking out of the scope of the Bill decisions falling under Article 48(6). If such decisions were no longer subject to a subsequent referendum, which would be the effect if the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, was agreed to, the practical damage done to our country would be less. I hope that the noble Baroness can follow the logic of that. Perhaps she would like me to repeat the point. She is shaking her head, but I would be happy to do so if she does not understand the point because it is extremely important.

I repeat to the noble Baroness that the effect of the Bill as currently drafted is not merely, as she might have supposed from hearing the declarations of her Prime Minister and her Foreign Secretary, to ensure that there is a referendum if ever we have treaty changes or grant increased competence to the European Union. The Bill would have the effect of requiring a referendum on decisions such as those that I have enumerated, including, for example, on police collaboration. The effect of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and his colleagues would be that we would not need a referendum on those other matters, which are decisions not involving a transfer of powers. That is an important distinction to consider.

I do not say that I would be happy with the Bill if it was simply amended in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and his colleagues propose—I would still be very unhappy—but I would be less unhappy with it and the damage done to the national interest would be less, because the kinds of decisions that I am enumerating would be able to be reached. We would be able to take part in those decisions if this amendment went through. It is very important indeed that the noble Baroness understands that important distinction, and I am glad to have had the opportunity to go through it with her.

Let me carry on with the next example in Schedule 1, which is,

“Article 89 (cross-border operation by competent authorities)”.

Again, it is very possible to imagine scenarios in which some sensible, pragmatic arrangement needs to be reached with our European partners on cross-border issues, such as drugs, racketeering or human trafficking, which we are assured is a major problem. Under the Bill as currently drafted, such decisions could not be reached without a referendum, but they could be reached without a referendum if the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and his colleagues was adopted. Perhaps the noble Baroness appreciates that point now.

Another example is,

“adoption of certain environmental measures”.

I totally agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said about that. It seems to me that it may very well be necessary, if we are to take any practical measures at all in defence of the environment, for us to reach agreement with our continental—and, indeed, Irish—neighbours. Once again, if we are half-serious about the European Union, that is an issue on which we should be able to do business without having to resort to a referendum the whole time.

Another example that is quite interesting—I will come on to “enhanced co-operation” in a second—is,

“changes to list of military products exempt from internal market provisions”.

Perhaps the coalition has not recognised this as yet, but we actually have a very major and successful defence industry—I know something about that—so it is very important indeed that, in so far as possible, our defence industry is able to sell its products within the European Union, where there are no problems of international conflict or anything of that sort. For that purpose, it could be a very good thing if the areas in which we are currently protected against single market legislation in the matter of defence goods should be reduced. That is something on which we may need to come to an agreement with others, so it would be absurd to have a referendum on a matter like that. Of course, once again, we all know that there never would be a referendum; if we enacted this Bill, we would simply be ensuring that, in practice, the Minister could never be party to an agreement.

As I said on Second Reading, it is clear to me that the consequence of enacting this Bill, including its present provisions whereby Article 48(6) decisions would be covered by the requirement for a referendum, would be not to bring the European Union to a halt or to stop the EU doing any business; the consequence would be that we would be de facto excluded from any decisions that were taken. We would simply find that we had a Minister present who had become an embarrassment to us and a joke to others. The Minister would be completely paralysed and unable not only to take part in a decision but to have any influence on that decision. We all know that you can influence discussion, negotiation or the exchange of views only if you can contribute something. I made that point in an earlier intervention. If it is known from the outset that whatever is agreed you will not be a party to it, by definition you have no leverage on the result.

The practical consequences of the Bill as drafted would be appalling. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and his co-signatories on coming up with an amendment which would seriously mitigate the damage done by the Bill, though it would certainly not by any means remove all of it. However, it would at least reduce that damage, and in that sense is extremely welcome.