Rules-based International Order

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Baroness Northover]

That this House takes note of the challenges to a rules-based international order, and their impact on global cohesion, stability and security.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have put down their names to speak in this debate. I look forward to hearing what they have to say.

We are a few days before the second inauguration of President Trump. Before he has even taken office, he has spoken of taking over Canada, the Panama Canal and Greenland. We know that what he says does not necessarily translate into what he does, though whether, this time, his chosen advisers will have much of a check on him remains to be seen. We now have autocratic leaders in three of the five permanent UN Security Council members: Russia, China and the US. We will have to see what kind of restraint on Trump can come from American democracy, the media—see even the Washington Post under Bezos—and the apparent separation of powers within the US system. He is the first convicted criminal to take office as President in the United States.

Globally, we see nationalists and populists exploiting economic challenges, post Covid and post the invasion of Ukraine, with climate change potentially destabilising the world. We see the use of misinformation becoming a fine art, not just from Russia and China but many other actors, and now via X and unchecked Meta. AI threatens to turbocharge this. Biden has just spoken of the US becoming an oligarchy, with huge wealth, power and influence concentrated in the hands of very few. Given the US’s position as the world’s largest economy, that has global implications. Huge wealth as possessed by Musk, along with social media influence, seemingly allows him to threaten to overturn our own democracy. Putin is also an oligarch, of course, and Chinese oligarchs have to dance to the tune of their leadership—see Jack Ma.

The institutions put in place particularly after the Second World War and Nazi genocide seem to be under threat. The rules-based order, whatever its limitations, is being shaken up. The world faces the existential threat of climate change but instead of pulling together to address this, we seem to be pulling apart—a far cry, seemingly, from where we were when the Paris Agreement was signed 10 years ago. Trump may indeed pull out of that, despite the huge financial and human costs, not least of what has happened in California. It is a tinderbox world. Are there even foreshadowings of the catastrophes of the mid-20th century as we look at widespread economic challenges, the social instability that usually follows, populists deploying new propaganda tools and the rise of authoritarianism?

It has always struck me that it was remarkable that any global agreements on international law and global institutions should be agreed. However flawed people may feel them to be, it is worth emphasising that point. The very idea of states potentially agreeing to limit what they might do, either within their own countries or in their relations with other countries, is striking. The establishment of the Red Cross in the 19th century reflects this: the First Geneva Convention of 1864, including the non-targeting of medical services on the battlefield. It is ironic that our next debate should be on attacks on healthcare in Gaza.

The brutality of the First World War led to the far-sighted, but ultimately ineffective, League of Nations seeking to resolve competition between nations through dialogue and diplomacy. The economic consequences of reparations, the stock market crash of 1929 and the depression, with propaganda lethally harnessed, destabilised the West and helped to pave the way in Germany for Hitler and the Nazis, through genocide, to begin the invasion of neighbouring countries and thence to the Second World War.

It was in the wake of those catastrophic years that we saw the setting-up of the global institutions we have today: the Bretton Woods agreements on the establishment of what became the IMF and the World Bank in 1944; and most importantly, the UN in 1945, whose charter will be 80 years old this July. Among the other plethora of organisations set up following the Second World War, there was the International Court of Justice at the Hague in 1945, agreements on regulating trade which eventually developed into the World Trade Organization, the World Health Organization in 1948 and NATO in 1949. Brits played key roles in those—global influence. Of course, established as a project for peace, there was also the Common Market in 1957, which later became the EU. It brought together in remarkable fashion France and Germany in particular in the hope of avoiding future wars in Europe, and now includes states of the former Soviet Union, with candidates such as Ukraine keen to join.

Over the years since the Second World War, the Nuremberg trials were held, then others were held to account for genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Balkans and elsewhere. International law steadily developed, and, after much struggling, the International Criminal Court came into existence in 2002. Whatever the flaws, those were remarkable developments since the catastrophe of the 1930s in Germany and the Second World War: a framework of political, legal and economic rules to manage relations between states, to prevent conflict and to uphold the rights of all people, wherever they lived. Of course, things have not been perfect. We have had wars and even genocides. The veto in the Security Council has stymied action. The complaint is made that these international arrangements particularly favoured the US and the western world. Nevertheless, it is remarkable that such global organisations were set up.

UK Governments have long argued for the international rules-based system. Thus, the last Government in their refreshed integrated review committed the UK to working to

“shape an open and stable international order of well-managed cooperation and competition between sovereign states on the basis of reciprocity, norms of responsible behaviour and respect for the fundamental principles of the UN Charter and international law”.

I expect that the current Government will say the same, but the challenges are immense.

There are autocratic leaders of states. Putin apparently wants to recreate a historic Russia or Soviet Union by dominating neighbours and brutally invading Ukraine. I heard Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov at the Doha Forum defending this in a way that reminded me of domestic abuse: “We had to; we were provoked”—in effect, “They asked for it”. If Trump seeks to end US engagement in Ukraine, how ready are we to work with European partners to ensure that Putin does not benefit from gains in Ukraine or undermine the security of the Baltic states and others? We know that much of the rest of the world does not share our concern about Ukraine. The External Affairs Minister of India put it thus:

“Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe’s problems are the world’s problems but the world’s problems are not Europe’s problems”.


Then there is China. The Chancellor argues that China’s economy is vital for our own. Clearly, China’s slowdown affects the rest of the world. Tariffs from the US on China will affect us all. China leads on manufacturing renewables. It controls much of the world’s critical minerals supply. Industrial espionage is seemingly widely used to maintain its position at the forefront. Its engagement with the global South and its indebtedness to China, plus its human rights record, all make its role in the international order challenging. China’s cultivation of the global South is why we could never win votes at the UN on Hong Kong. Yet, interestingly, it maintains support for the principle of the UN charter, so long as it does not mean so-called internal interference. China has been expansionist in seeking control and influence. We do not know what Trump will do if China invades Taiwan. What will Europe do?

Both Russia and China are able to seize on the global South’s resentment at what seem like western double standards. One of the major areas where double standards seem to hold is the Middle East. It came across very strongly from leaders and others across the region and Africa at the Doha Forum in December that the response by the Israeli Government to the attack of 7 October 2023 is viewed as devastatingly disproportionate. The UN and ICC have said as much, but in return have come under attack. The West has not pushed back, critics say, allowing the Government of Israel to get away with actions others are condemned for.

The growth of populism and nationalism globally, reflected in Trump’s election, seems to show that lies are believed just as easily, maybe more so, than the truth, and that politics is being driven to the extremes. Those seeking power seem adept at using this. Sufficient numbers of people believe them, as we have seen in Latin America, Europe—including the UK—and elsewhere. We see that the likely victor in Canada in its upcoming elections is one who, in an interview before Christmas, expressed a desire to pull out of the UN. The WHO too is under misinformation attack.

Economic pressures, populism, nationalism and the spread of disinformation all played their part in our pulling out of the EU—that project for peace—even though we damaged ourselves economically and in terms of our global influence by doing so. Has withdrawing from the EU neutered the right wing in Britain? Hardly; if anything, it is stronger. The Government need to recognise that and move further and faster in rebuilding ties with the EU, both for growth and to maximise our global influence. Pandering to the right clearly did not work.

It is said that we are now in a multipolar world, but it is striking that even the BRICS countries nevertheless sign up to the principle of the UN charter. It is just that they say the West has double standards in applying this.

There has been a rise in authoritarianism around the world, including in Europe. Terrorism networks are better funded, exploiting concern over certain conflicts to raise funds. Crime is often international, including exploiting the increasing number of migrants on the move in Africa, to Europe and up through central America—a trend that climate change and conflict are exacerbating.

States, as ever, involve themselves for their own interests in the conflicts of others, as we see in the terrible case in Sudan, or risk seeing in Syria. Agreement on the equal rights of all—particularly women, and especially control over their own bodies—is seriously in danger of going backwards. We see that in full force in Afghanistan. Major new challenges, such as climate change and the transformative expansion of artificial intelligence, face us, with global institutions talking about these but not necessarily finding it possible to take action.

Nevertheless, as I have said, it was a huge achievement to have any global rules and institutions, which, since World War II, have helped protect citizens, including those in conflict, bring millions out of poverty and hold leaders to account. We should seek to strengthen them and not walk away.

We are indeed in very challenging times. I look forward to hearing noble Lords’ contributions, and especially the Government’s view, on this very wide-ranging topic. It is just the future of the world—that is all. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions and, as I expected, this debate has been very wide-ranging, drawing on huge expertise. I must respond to the noble Lord, Lord Callanan. I suggest that he reads back over what I actually said about President Trump, including the potential checks on him in the US system. I believe in being precise.

In this debate, it comes across loud and clear that noble Lords support the principles of a rules-based international system, with internationally agreed laws, fairly applied. There has been considerable concern about, first, the potential weakness of that international order and, secondly, the profound challenges we face: in particular, the new challenges of climate change and AI. It was out of appalling catastrophe—genocide, a devastating war and the flattening of cities, including the first use of nuclear weapons—that our current international system was born. We have to hope that we can work together to improve and modernise that system, without needing catastrophe to enable it. There was clear cross-party agreement on the need to do that, which I welcome.

Motion agreed.

Gaza: Healthcare System Support

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, it is hugely welcome that we finally seem to have a peace deal, and we must hope that this holds, but we must not look away now. There are lessons to be learned and only a sustained focus can give any hope of there not being similar conflicts in the future. Although this debate focuses on healthcare in Gaza, it is in essence about rights and responsibilities. As the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has rightly laid out, under international law, civilians and medical staff must be protected, yet we hear that in Gaza, hospitals have been attacked, with patients killed, equipment destroyed and services lost. Numerous doctors and other medical staff have been killed.

The WHO has said that Israeli forces have conducted a

“systematic dismantling of the health system”

in northern Gaza. The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights has described a “pattern of attacks” that begin with Israeli air strikes and are followed by ground raids and the detention of patients and staff,

“leaving the hospital essentially non-functional”.

Israel has maintained that Hamas has been operating from these health facilities, but the UN high commissioner states that Israel

“has not provided sufficient information to substantiate many of these claims”

and has called for independent investigations. Why have these not been allowed? Why are journalists not allowed access?

It is in the interests of everyone—Israelis, Palestinians, the wider region and globally—for this appalling situation to end. A political resolution, with a two-state solution, is long overdue. International law must be respected without fear or favour.

Red Sea: Houthi Attacks

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Thursday 24th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend would expect, we are committed to making sure that our military, be that on air, land or sea, is adequately equipped and has everything it needs to do its important job. We currently spend around £54 billion on defence and are working hard to get to a point where we can meet our commitment to spending 2.5% on defence.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is beyond urgent to put global pressure on the parties in the Middle East to bring the conflict to an end, given the devastation, loss of life and instability, as in this case, that it has produced? What action are the Government taking?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The implication of that question is that somehow the behaviour of the Houthis regarding shipping is related to the instability and the war in Israel and Gaza. We do not accept that. The behaviour of the Houthis needs to stop. It is a threat to security and stability more widely in the Middle East. We do not accept the Houthis’ contention that their behaviour is in any way related to the situation in Israel, Lebanon or Gaza.

Ethiopia and Somalia

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Monday 7th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I note the noble Lord’s support for a special representative on sexual violence. There will be announcements about that. He is absolutely right to raise the issues of Tigray and sexual violence, and of food insecurity in the region, which we are equally concerned about. All this gets resolved only through dialogue and de-escalation, and that is what the UK seeks to support.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, conflict over water is likely to intensify so, following on from the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, what is the Government’s assessment of Ethiopia damming the Blue Nile? That obviously has beneficial effects for the Ethiopian economy but negative effects for the Egyptian economy, fuelling conflict. What kind of resolution can be brought forward here?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

We completely understand why Egypt and Sudan would be concerned about access to water through the Nile and the dam, but the only way that this gets resolved is through dialogue between Ethiopia and Egypt, and we support any work that can happen to resolve this in as amicable a way as possible in the circumstances.

Middle East Update

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I should make it clear to the noble Lord that this is not, as he suggests, an embargo. It is a restriction on a very small number of pieces of equipment and it is in order for us to comply with international law. That is the extent of it. UK-Israel co-operation on defence and security remains vital. We will work together to deter malign threats from Iran, protect mutual security interests and develop capabilities, ensuring critical national infrastructure and mutual resilience in cyberspace. We will work together. Israel is our ally. We support its right to defend itself. This is not an embargo.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

I am sure that the Minister is aware that on 16 August an FCDO official, Mark Smith, resigned on the basis that:

“Ministers claim that the UK has one of the most ‘robust and transparent’ arms export licensing regimes in the world, however this is the opposite of the truth”.


He went on to say:

“To export arms to any nation, the UK must be satisfied that the recipient nation has in place robust procedures to avoid civilian casualties and to minimize harm to civilian life. It is impossible to argue that Israel is doing that”.


I am sure that the Minister will not comment on the case of Mr Smith, but can we be reassured that the Government will apply the rules without fear or favour as to the country in question?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The noble Baroness is correct that I am unable to comment on the case of an individual, but she can be assured on her latter point. I invite her to read the summary that we published yesterday alongside the Statement.

Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and International Committee of the Red Cross (Status) Bill [HL]

Baroness Northover Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 29th July 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I also welcome the Minister to her position. I think that she may be focusing on Latin America—she is nodding. Our engagement there is vital if we are going to combat climate change, and I look forward to further engagement with her on that. I also want to take this as my first opportunity to thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, for all his work and his inclusive approach to those in the Opposition. He was always willing to respond to messages in relation to the numerous conflicts and challenges that have arisen in foreign affairs. I also came to realise on Zoom during Covid what the noble Lord’s attire must be when his young son came into the background, duly wearing a white shirt, tie and jacket just like his dad, and swimming shorts—just like his dad no doubt, just unseen.

It has also been excellent to work with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, who has made his party’s support for this Bill very clear. I am impressed that Labour has moved so fast in reintroducing this Bill as a Government Bill, and I commend it for that. As we have heard, this Bill started as a Private Member’s Bill introduced by Maria Miller in the other place; the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, introduced it into this House in May, and I commend them for their efforts. The Bill’s aim is to treat the CPA and the ICRC in a comparable manner to international organisations of which the UK is a member. The Minister and others have laid out why that needs to be done, and its implications. They have pointed out that the ICRC and the CPA would not otherwise be considered as international organisations because they are not intergovernmental, hence the gap.

As we all know, the ICRC is impartial, with an exclusively humanitarian mission. It engages all parties to conflicts and assists vulnerable groups in conflict situations, and its independence and confidentiality are essential for its effectiveness. Unfortunately, with global crises as they are, it has much work to do in the most difficult circumstances. So we support its promotion and implementation of international humanitarian law, which has been seriously under threat. Trying to ensure that there are international rules and that they are respected is absolutely vital.

As my noble friend Lord Purvis and others have noted, it is surprising that we have not agreed these provisions in the Bill before. The Explanatory Notes state that over 110 states have already done so, including all the other permanent members of the UN Security Council, so we obviously need to catch up.

As we are all aware, and as others have said, the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association seeks to build and strengthen support for parliamentary democracy. As the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has just said, so much of the future is with the young people of the Commonwealth. It wishes to have the freedom to undertake wider activities in promoting democracy and protecting the values and principles set out in the Commonwealth charter.

At the moment, the CPA operates as a UK-registered charity regulated by UK charitable law. Prior to the coalition, I was vice-chair of the CPA and, like many noble Lords and Members of the other place, I have benefited from engagement with parliamentarians across the world through the CPA and the IPU. We learn a great deal from each other. I recall in particular a visit to Pakistan led by the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, where we met women parliamentarians from right across the political spectrum. Led by their Speaker, a woman, they had worked deep into their own parties and with brave survivors to help criminalise the awful practice of acid attacks. This showed that it was possible to work together, even across political divides and cultures, for such outcomes. We parliamentarians from the UK stood in awe of what had been achieved by our fellow parliamentarians. This kind of engagement assists all parliamentarians.

The Bill will enable the Government to treat the CPA and the ICRC in a way that is comparable to other international organisations, such as the IPU under Swiss law. As others have said, these organisations help to uphold international law and democracy, and they are badly needed. I therefore welcome the Bill and lend it the support of these Benches.

President of Iran: Death

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, commentators have noted that these deaths are not likely to change the direction of the Government of Iran. Could the Minister update us on discussions that the Government may be having with the EU and whichever US Administration may come in after its elections on what can be done to take forward the curbing of Iran’s nuclear programme?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right to draw attention to the issue of Iran’s nuclear ambitions. She will be well aware that we kept the JCPOA on the table, notwithstanding America’s withdrawal. We have seen increasingly—coming back to the point my noble friend articulated—Iran going directly against this by, for example, immediately prohibiting IAEA access to Iran. We have pressed on that; my noble friend the Foreign Secretary recently met Mr Grossi to assess the levers we currently have to ensure that Iran’s nuclear capability is not weaponised. We continue to be focused, including in our discussions with both the United States and European partners, and, I also add, with other key partners in the region.

Israel and Gaza

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Baroness’s last point, I disagree with her. On Yemen, we have announced additional funding of £139 million. On Syria, we have announced further funding of £89 million, so we are very much seized of the humanitarian plight of those suffering across the region. On Congo, the situation is desperate. I myself visited Congo with Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Edinburgh on the prevention of sexual violence in conflict, so the noble Baroness is wrong to say that. I cannot speak for others, nor will I: I speak for the British Government and our country. We are very much focused on that.

On the casualty figures, yes, the UN revised them because they are based on casualties that it is now finding. I fear, and I do not want to add to speculation, that we need to make a full assessment on the ground. I agree with the noble Baroness inasmuch as we need to have these figures established and verified. To do that, we need the UN agencies and we need the verification process to take place, because what is undoubtedly true is that much of Gaza is currently in ruins and we need to ensure that those souls who have been buried under that are given dignity.

At the same time, I recognise that we hold Israel to a high standard because it is a democracy with a rule of law. We do not have the same standard for Hamas. It is a terrorist group. When we hold Israel to account, we do so as a friend and constructive partner. It is important that we continue to focus on that.

On recognition, and I am sure the noble Baroness will, on reflection, agree with me, I have said repeatedly that stability, security and peace will be possible only once there is stability, security and peace for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

The Statement refers to

“a political horizon for the Palestinians, providing a credible and irreversible pathway towards a two-state solution”.

Is that not a mountain the top of which will never be reached? Why will the Government not do as the Foreign Affairs Select Committee does—of course, now Norway, Ireland and Spain are added to the 142 countries—and recognise the state of Palestine? My party has long argued for this so that we can move forward in the way that the Minister describes, to a peaceful and just existence for both the Israelis and the Palestinians.

I am proud of the work done by the late, lamented Lord Goodhart and many other British lawyers to bring about the ICC. Is it not important that we do not undermine its work?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Baroness about the importance of international law and the role that the ICC has played. We have seen this in areas such as Russia and Ukraine. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, articulated, it allows a pre-trial process to be followed and it is important that that process is now undertaken. Many have expressed their personal perspectives on that, but when it comes to legal processes, less is more. Let the ICC get on with its process. There will be an opportunity to discuss it further at an appropriate time.

It is very clear that we continue to engage with Israel as a constructive partner. There are those in Israel who recognise the same credible, irreversible pathway to the two-state solution. On recognition, I have articulated the United Kingdom’s position. We will continue to work constructively with Israelis and Palestinians, and do so in quite a dynamic fashion, between my noble friend the Foreign Secretary’s engagements and my own. We have been working in tandem on this.

The noble Baroness mentioned a mountain, the top of which will never be reached. If there is one commodity one must have in abundance when it comes to public service, it is to never give up on hope.

Conflict-induced Food Insecurity

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

My noble friend is completely right about that. We can see from the statistics that acute food insecurity is at a five-year high. The Global Report on Food Crises this year indicated that over 281 million people worldwide faced high levels of food insecurity. I agree that climate change has an impact and population can have an impact, but what is driving this insecurity at the moment across Africa and elsewhere is conflict. Trying to unlock some of the peace processes in those conflicts is where we could have the biggest influence.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, the ICC chief prosecutor has said that there are reasonable grounds to accuse the Prime Minister and Defense Minister of Israel of a potential war crime, as we have heard. That war crime is the:

“Starvation of civilians as a method of warfare”.


I note that the noble Lord said that he will respect the ICC process. Does he agree that 90 trucks via the sea bridge hardly matches up to the 4,500 trucks prevented from entering via Rafah? Does he agree that, as a first step, funding must be restored to UNRWA, on which the aid agencies heavily depend for logistics and delivery capacity?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I will answer both parts of that question. On the entry of aid into Gaza, it is absolutely right that Israel has not met some of its promises, like the 500 trucks a day, but there are other areas, like having this new pier on the beach in Gaza, from which aid, including British aid, has been distributed. That is a step forward, as is opening Ashdod port, where flour for bakeries has been delivered. Those do not look to me like acts of a nation embarked on genocide and war crimes, but of course we must keep up the pressure elsewhere.

I totally understand and respect the fact that UNRWA is vital for the onward distribution of aid—I discussed this with the head of the World Food Programme just last week—but we have to be cognisant that reports that UNRWA staff were involved in 7 October need to be properly investigated and properly dealt with. Two reports have been commissioned, but we have had only one. I want to see that second report and I want really strong undertakings from UNRWA so that we know our money is going to the right cause.

Israel and Gaza

Baroness Northover Excerpts

Tuesday 7th May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s position has always been that we need all sides who come to the negotiating table to recognise the other side’s right to exist. Therefore, we have been very clear as part of my noble friend the Foreign Secretary’s conditions, and as my noble friend Lord Leigh has laid out, that Hamas can no longer be in control in Gaza.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, have the UK Government seen any evidence that the Israeli authorities have put in place serious provisions to ensure that the Palestinian refugees in Gaza are being protected? If they do not see any such serious evidence—the Minister mentioned that he looked for it—what action will they take?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I have already answered the first question; we have seen no credible plan as to where people would go. I assure the noble Baroness that we are pressing the Israeli authorities to ensure that their obligations in this regard are fulfilled if the full-scale Rafah operation goes ahead.