BBC Charter
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
As I have said, we are looking at the whole process at the moment. Independence is an important issue, and when we set out our plans we will come back with our ideas on how we can best ensure an independent and good future for the BBC. I wanted to respond to the points that were made in the report, because it is as well that people understand that the report’s key proposal on this point will not necessarily be accepted. However, having said that, obviously we remain in listening mode at this stage of the process and we will come back with a White Paper.
Although there has not been much comment on it, it is worth mentioning that last week the Government announced a deal with the BBC to close the iPlayer loophole, which, under current regulation, allows viewers to watch catch-up services on iPlayer without paying for a TV licence. Obviously, this will stop those who are essentially freeloading from not paying the licence fee, and the Government will bring forward secondary legislation on this point as soon as is practicable. This responds to the digital change that we have discussed in many of our different debates.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
Of course we welcome the decision on BBC iPlayer, but just as important would be a guarantee that there will be no more top-slicing of the licence fee.
Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green(9 years, 2 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I am grateful not only to the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, but to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, for their comments and to the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, for taking us back to Committee and the issue about housing associations. I am rather hoping that somebody from the Box will be able to let me answer her question about timing before we finish, but if not, I will write to her separately.
This group of amendments would require the public sector target to apply to high-quality and high-level apprenticeships and would differentiate between new and existing apprenticeships. I have spoken previously during the passage of the Bill about how the Government are committed to ensuring that all apprenticeships are of a high quality, and that is central to our reforms. So there is common ground here.
Having said that, we had a very good discussion in Committee, but, rather like Amendment 52, which the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, sensibly did not move because of today’s events in the spending review, discussion on quality has, I think, been overtaken to some extent by today’s announcement in the other place by the Chancellor that the Government intend to establish the institute for apprenticeships. That will be central to the discussion of this area, and I hope that this independent new quality body will be welcomed once people understand in detail what is proposed.
It is against that background that I will try to respond to the debate this evening. First, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, we are committed to an apprenticeship programme that is for all ages and all sectors. All apprenticeships should be quality apprenticeships. As the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, made clear, all apprenticeships, whether they are level 2 or level 3, offer benefits and obviously should be of appropriate quality. We believe that they are an important step into the labour market and provide very valuable jobs in the economy. For example, recent research shows that adult apprenticeships at level 2 deliver £26 of economic benefit for each £1 of government investment. We must not lose that.
Employers are developing new standards to meet the skills of their sectors. The trailblazer quality statement sets out a range of measures to improve quality, including a minimum duration of one year, and must involve substantial on-the-job and off-the-job training. Training providers are also registered to ensure that they can provide good-quality services, and we are creating more degree apprenticeships.
The current employer-led apprenticeship trailblazer programme has rightly put employers in the driving seat, determining what constitutes quality. However, to deliver a genuinely world-class apprenticeship programme, it is widely agreed that we need a long-term arrangement that will support employers to uphold the high quality of apprenticeship standards and—I think this is an important point—to be able to respond to the changing needs of business, technology and society. We are therefore establishing a new employer-led institute for apprenticeships, as I have just explained. That will set the standards and ensure quality, and we anticipate that it will be active from 2017 onwards.
I would like to respond to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, made about bureaucracy; as he knows, that is something against which I am as keen a campaigner as he is. That is something that we need to have regard to in this process. However, the good news is that the body will be independent. It will put employers at the heart of ensuring a sustainable governance arrangement to uphold high-quality apprenticeships and respond to the changing needs of business. We intend to introduce legislation to deliver the institute for apprenticeships, and further details will be made available in due course.
I turn to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Young. We do not think it necessary for the public sector target to differentiate between new and existing employees. The public sector duty and the apprentices levy will encourage the public sector to identify talent from diverse backgrounds across their organisations. It will help many people, new starts and existing staff, to learn new skills and achieve their potential. Apprenticeships are of course not just for young people entering the world of work. To my mind, there is value to both employer and apprentice when anyone takes up an apprenticeship as they change roles, get promoted or start a new, demanding role within their organisation.
The noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, asked about the impact on local authority schemes, which are a good entry route. Our approach to the apprenticeship programme will be not to undermine local authority-supported schemes that help to create entry routes into apprenticeships. Indeed, we believe that such schemes—for example, traineeships and the Prince’s Trust—are also important. With regard to the end-point assessment in local authorities, we do not currently plan this but we welcome input on the role of the new institute from all stakeholders, and I will pick up the noble Lord’s point about bureaucracy.
The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, asked about the timing of the housing association consultation. We plan to bring forward the consultation by the end of the year.
Finally, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Young, I think that I have already explained and engaged on the question of whether apprenticeships should be new jobs. I think we agree that apprenticeships are paid jobs for people of all ages and are dependent on employers offering opportunities. They offer a substantial way of building a workforce with the skills that people need to succeed, and offer substantial training to ensure that apprentices gain significant new skills. I am conscious that the noble Lord is a great expert on apprenticeships and I look forward to his input.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
Frankly, given the large number of what are described as adult apprenticeships, I think that we should distinguish, but I can see that I have not won that particular argument.
I could not help reflecting on the point that the Minister made about the institute and apprenticeship standards. It will guarantee the quality of standard but not the quality of delivery, and that is the challenge—that is where things can sometimes go badly wrong. I am not opposed to the new institute. I merely say to the Minister that if the Government are going to increase the numbers and the volume that they are talking about and they are successful in doing so, the challenge will still be to ensure that every single employer is delivering a quality apprenticeship.
We know we have had experience in the past where that has not been the case. The Government have changed the definition of what constitutes an apprenticeship, the timescales have been altered and so on, but that does not mean that there is no element of risk there. I say that in a constructive way. The Government need to think through very carefully how they are going to ensure that the quality of the training provider and of employer delivery will match what they believe defines a quality apprenticeship. If they do not, they will not attract into apprenticeships the kind of people that we need to attract. We need engineers and people working in construction, and we need more young women going into those areas. To do that, you need to create an environment where people feel that they are entering a quality area of employment.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young, for his constructive comments. He is right to explain that there could be difficulties and that it is important that we ensure quality as well as set quality standards. I apologise to the House that, as it were, an announcement tumbled into our Report stage today, but that is the way of the world. I emphasise that the issue of the institute and how we ensure quality is work in progress, as is the question of the levy. There will of course be further discussions on all this, and appropriate consultation processes are continuing. However, I hope that the provisions in the Bill on apprenticeships, limited though they are, will prove fruitful and helpful. I hope that the noble Lords have found my explanation helpful and, on that basis, will feel able to withdraw their amendment.
Enterprise Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Lord Young of Norwood Green
The Minister did not respond on public sector contracts, and I would welcome a response. I do not think I am going to be surprised by it, but I would like one.
I do not disagree with the Minister’s point about the difficulty of setting targets for every company, but we should surely be concerned that we never seem to have got a lot further than something like one in four or one in five companies taking on apprenticeships. We never seem to be able to push the needle on the dial much further than that. If we believe, as I know the Government do, that the vast majority of these apprenticeships should be coming from SMEs, it is vital that we make some impact on them. What plans do the Government have? I heard the Minister say that employers are at the heart of this and will determine the skills required. I do not quarrel with that. The Government have introduced new funding arrangements which not every employer is happy with. That is a bit of a worry because they feel that they will have to claim back. I have heard from employer organisations that there are real concerns about that. That is the problem we face if we want to get significant numbers of young people. Although I heard the figures the Minister quoted, I still think that that will be the challenge and that getting them into these small and medium-sized enterprises will be vital.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
We will come on to discuss contracting out, which is the subject of the next amendment. I hope it will enable me to reassure the noble Lord on that point. SMEs also come up later. His points are extremely well made. This is a very important area. There is a lot of cross-government consensus that we need to have a step change in apprenticeships. Germany and Switzerland have classically done a better job. With the levy, the change and the move to proper frameworks and at least a full year for every apprenticeship, we are trying to move into a different place.
The provisions in this Bill do not answer all the questions, but they do some useful things. With the noble Lord’s agreement, I hope we can move on to the next amendment and talk about what we are going to try to do for contracting out.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I do not know whether the noble Baroness has a copy of the letter that the noble Earl, Lord Courtown, sent to us, but in it he says:
“In addition, the Skills Funding Agency … runs the apprenticeships helpline which was given an expanded remit in the summer, enabling anyone involved in an apprenticeship—not just the apprentice—to raise concerns about any element of how the apprenticeship is being delivered”.
I did not get a response on the concerns expressed in the Ofsted report and in anecdotal accounts. The letter goes on to say:
“The SFA have rigorous checks in place and have embarked on a programme of staff training to ensure that these issues are dealt with effectively”.
I like the promise. I would put against it “CAD”—“check against delivery”. How will it do it, given the vast number of apprenticeships? That is not to dismiss the fact that Ofsted will also do some work on this, but there is a commitment in that letter.
Setting the standards is one thing. Having a defined framework in understandable language is great. The problem we have is those employers that might do that, but fail to deliver. It says in the legislation that they will be punished and fined. I am interested in that because it might help, but I am far more interested in seeing whether the Skills Funding Agency has the ability to monitor apprenticeships to ensure that they are delivering on quality as well as quantity and how it will do it. If the Minister does not have an answer that is okay; I am quite happy to accept it in writing. However, it is a part of the Government’s commitment to raising quality as well as quantity.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I stand by what my noble friend Lord Courtown put in his letter. I will not delay the Committee by repeating it, although people are very welcome to a copy. Obviously, we understand that ensuring quality is an absolutely key part of our reforms. That is what we are saying. The SFA has an important part to play here. As I have said, Ofsted also has a part to play. We will be bringing in the quality control system that was described.
Although some people were concerned about the changes to apprenticeships, we are changing the system and we will have to make sure that the surrounding infrastructure is appropriate and appropriately resourced —we can certainly discuss that further—but that is why I did not repeat the points my noble friend made about the introduction of registers and quality control over training providers.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, I support the amendment. To pick up the last point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, about group training associations, I went round a number of them while I was a junior Minister. The Government ought to encourage them. The noble Baroness is right: although the bigger employers use their supply chains, the benefit of the group training associations is that they bring in a much wider group of small and medium-sized employers. I would welcome hearing what steps the Government are taking to encourage the development of more group training associations.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
Small businesses are of course the cornerstone of our economy, and high-quality training opportunities such as apprenticeships can be key to supporting their growth and success. It is essential that the apprenticeship system works for those employers as well. The majority of existing apprenticeships are in fact with smaller businesses. Significant progress has been made in ensuring that apprenticeships are accessible to them.
Small businesses are directly involved in all phases of the process to develop apprenticeship standards. When new standards are submitted, evidence is required that small businesses have been involved and that they support the development of that standard. I know that from the work that I have done in the electronics sector. A variety of mechanisms is used to engage small business throughout that development—face-to-face consultation events for automotive standards and online consultation for electrotechnical standards. Small firms have been actively involved in the craft trailblazer. We engage with representative organisations that represent smaller businesses. We have even made a small travel fund available, which smaller employers can use to attend meetings to develop standards.
Most important of all, the apprenticeship grant for employers also provides employers with fewer than 50 employees with a £1,500 incentive payment for up to five new apprentices aged 16 to 24. This will continue to be available until 2015 at least.
There is also a wide range of apprenticeship training agencies—ATAs—and GTAs, as the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, made clear. They employ apprentices and place them with host employers who may be unable to commit to employing an apprentice directly. For employers, this makes it easier to take on an apprentice. Good-quality ATAs will be able to continue to operate once the apprenticeship funding reforms have been introduced. The SFA also runs an apprenticeship helpline.
There are also lots of good examples, including case studies of apprentices and employers, on the SFA’s “Find an apprenticeship” website. I have various publications here which I am happy to share.
We believe that this is the right approach to SME support. We think it would be complex and confusing to require public sector organisations to duplicate the effort and provide additional resource to facilitate small businesses entering into apprenticeship agreements. We are putting small business at the heart of the way we are going forward. For the same reason, we are unconvinced of the merits of involving the Small Business Commissioner, whose main role is to address payment issues, particularly late payments, and to focus on that until we bring about a serious culture change. I hope noble Lords will have found my answer helpful and that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I support the noble Baroness’s amendment. She is right about the need to increase the number of higher-level apprenticeships. As I understand it, from a briefing I had from SEMTA, part of the problem is getting young people to see that this is not an either/or choice between a vocational and an academic route. People with the highest level of qualification feel that, if they are to progress to a degree, they have to go down the academic route. There are lots of opportunities for them to go down the higher-level apprenticeship route. The apprenticeships are there; we are not getting the take-up. This is another point on which to emphasise the importance of career guidance if we are to solve this problem.
The noble Baroness is right to draw attention to this part of the regulation. It is a useful and necessary emphasis. I referred earlier to the number of engineering and STEM apprenticeships that will be needed over the next five to 10 years. It is estimated to be 830,000. Not all of those will be higher level, but a significant number will.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, this amendment seeks to require that a person, when offering a statutory apprenticeship scheme, must stipulate whether it is a higher-level apprenticeship. This is already a non-statutory requirement for the “Find an apprenticeship” service and is covered through an apprenticeship agreement. The amendment would insert a new subsection into new Section A11 of the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009 to provide that a person commits an offence if, in the course of business, they offer a course of training and describe it as an “apprenticeship”, unless the course or training is a “statutory apprenticeship”. I do not believe that that is the right thing to do.
Improving quality is central to our reforms, as we have agreed. Employers are developing new standards to ensure that apprenticeships meet the skills needs of their sectors, in exactly the areas that the noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, spoke about: engineering, STEM and construction. In STEM, for example, apprenticeships have increased by 42% between 2009-10 and 2013-14. The starts at age 19-plus are up 83%. This is a long-term change programme. We all know how long and difficult those are.
The published trailblazer quality statement sets out a range of measures to improve quality, including the requirement for all apprenticeships to demonstrate progression and to involve sustained and substantial training of at least 12 months. The Government are committed to the expansion of higher apprenticeships, with a fivefold increase in higher apprenticeships since 2009-10. To date, there are more than 50 higher apprenticeships available up to degree and master’s level in areas such as life sciences, law and accounting. We need to get the message out that there are these possibilities and that they can create just as good a career as going to university if someone has the appropriate bent for apprenticeships.
In the circumstances—it is getting late—I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
European Union Membership: Science and Technology
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green(9 years, 7 months ago)
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Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, our negotiation is all about getting the best deal for the British people and then offering them a clear choice. The right question is not about detailed assessments but about a choice on membership in the key areas, and that is what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is busy securing for us.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I hear what the Minister says about EU funding and assessment, but will she comment on the fact that although the science budget was protected from government cuts, five years of ring-fencing have effectively reduced UK science spending by around 15%? Is the Minister concerned about that?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, in our manifesto we made a long-term commitment to science capital investment; that is,
“£6.9 billion in the UK’s research infrastructure to 2021”.
Of course, the past five years have been a difficult time, but that is because we have been tackling the financial crisis that, sadly, we inherited. But we want Britain to be the best place in Europe to innovate, to patent new ideas and to grow companies.
Zero-hours Contracts
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
I am disturbed to hear that. The provision has certainly come in and will be publicised in the normal way. As part of the work we are now doing, we consulted in February on redress. We will be bringing in a route of redress against employers who ignore the ban, and this will give a further opportunity for people to know about this exclusivity. An issue that I have often discussed on these Benches is how you get information about new legislation out. I take the point in general, but I assure the noble Baroness that the new provisions have come in and we are taking steps to publicise those.
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, I reassure the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, that we are not opposed to zero-hours contracts. However, when someone is on a zero-hours contract for six months or more, surely they deserve an offer of a permanent contract. The Minister talked about flexibility and a fair deal. Is it a fair deal to continue in the same employment without any pension contribution or guarantee of holiday payment? That does not seem like our idea of a fair deal, and it does not seem in accord with the Government’s recent re-espousal of “one nation”.
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, I think there is a fundamental disagreement between us. We believe in the value of zero-hours contracts. We also believe that we need to look at how they work in practice. There are parts of business where, just because you have worked in some area for 12 weeks, that does not actually mean that what is required by the employer will be the same 12 weeks later. There is a fundamental problem with the proposal put forward by the Labour Party. However, I assure the noble Lord that we continue to look at this with the objective of trying to ensure that it really works well in our flexible economy.
Apprentices
Debate between Baroness Neville-Rolfe and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)
My Lords, while I welcome the Government’s commitment to expanding apprenticeships, including the personal commitment from the Minister, it would help if, instead of referring to 3 million, we recognised that of that 3 million at least 50% are accounted for by the re-skilling of over-25s—not that I deplore that. The real challenge, as the Minister well knows, is to expand the number of apprenticeships in the 16 to 18, and indeed the 16 to 24, age range. What can be done about that when significant numbers of employers still do not participate in apprenticeships? I think it is still less than one in five; that is the statistic.
I therefore have a couple of recommendations. First, does the Minister agree that the Government should consider making apprenticeships a statutory requirement in all public sector contracts? Secondly, will she consider looking at the local enterprise partnerships and local authorities that have the best track record so that best practice can be identified around the country?
Baroness Neville-Rolfe
My Lords, that is a subject for a debate. However, I can say that on the public sector side we will be taking steps to have more apprenticeships where procurement contracts are involved. On the point about the local enterprise partnerships, some of them are doing some brilliant stuff on skills and apprenticeships, which we should publicise much more fully.