Energy Bill

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Maddock]

On the point about percentages, we need to be careful. Surveys have been done, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, probably knows this, which show that the understanding of percentages in the vast majority of the population is not very good. They would probably understand better how much of their bill they were paying rather than a percentage.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

When I first went to the Treasury in 1970, one of the things they said was, “You’ve got to realise that 50% of the population does not understand what 50% means”.

Warm Home Discount Regulations 2011

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Tuesday 29th March 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I welcome what the Minister has said, and these regulations, but I have some questions that I hope he will be able to help me with. I should also declare an interest: I am a vice-president of National Energy Action, a charity which campaigns to help people in fuel poverty. I know that the Minister himself, through the passage of the Energy Bill, is very committed to trying to alleviate fuel poverty in this country, but I wonder if he can help me.

The Minister estimated that 2 million households a year will benefit from this scheme, and he also explained that there will be legacy households from the voluntary scheme. Can he tell us how much of an overlap there is between these two groups? Maybe this is in the documents that go with the order—I did have a look at them, but I was not able to find this myself.

Also, following the Budget there was a lot of peripheral discussion about the fact that the upgrade on the winter fuel allowance that had been in place temporarily for two years was not continuing. I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to do this today, but is it possible to say what percentage of pensioners who get the winter fuel allowance are likely to be helped by this scheme? It is fairly important that we get that message out, given that there has been publicity in local papers about how terrible it is that people are losing their extra £50, or, if they are over 80, £100. It seems that many of the people who will find it hardest should benefit from this scheme, and it would be helpful if we could get those figures out.

I turn to my other question. Other than the pensioner or elderly group, will the Minister tell us more about how he sees other vulnerable groups, and who are they? I understand that the main concern of this is to protect the health and welfare of elderly people, but there are of course other vulnerable households—as indeed the noble Lord mentioned. I am thinking particularly of low-income families with young children, or people who have long-term disabilities or illnesses which mean they need to be kept warm.

I welcome this, I hope that the regulations that go with it later on are fairly speedy in coming, and I look forward to the answers from my noble friend.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, like my noble friend I, too, welcome these regulations. They bring a little more certainty to what has hitherto been a rather uncertain variety of schemes.

My main concern has always been how the suppliers are intended to identify the householders that they are supposed to help. My noble friend will remember that we had some discussion about that on the question of the Green Deal. It is on these energy discounts and what have previously been called rebates on bills that the problem has been at its most acute. I do not need to go over the detail of this, but when we first debated the CERT scheme—it must be nearly four years ago—two things were evident. One was the considerable hostility of the industry—the suppliers—to becoming involved in this sort of activity. I think attitudes have dramatically changed, and I find in talking to industry representatives a clear recognition that helping those who are most likely to suffer fuel poverty is indeed very much part of their social obligation. I welcome this change of heart; a variety of factors have contributed to it and I do not necessarily need to go into them.

The second problem, as I said, has always been that of identifying the households. We pressed former Ministers very hard on this and eventually secured a clause in the Pension Bill which allowed Ministers in the Department of Work and Pensions to supply the names of pension credit pensioners, as households likely to be most in need. Given the problem that had been identified—I will forbear from giving a quotation in Latin, because that now is rather frowned upon in this House.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, this is a new clause concerning proposed reductions in VAT rates and adds to the new clause I moved at the last sitting of this Committee. Members will be aware that most energy-saving materials enjoy the reduced VAT rate of 5 per cent; it makes no sense taxing energy saving more than energy use. There are some exceptions, however, and there are new technologies, as I mentioned last time.

I apologise for the wording in this amendment. As originally worded, subsection (1)(b) referred to “special glass” and not “energy efficient windows”, and when I changed the amendment I regret I did not change the explanatory paragraph below, which talks about the glass. I anticipate the amendment in this form is unlikely to be accepted by the Committee but if the Minister was minded I am sure he could change it.

It is important that we try to encourage people, as we are in this Bill, to spend their money on energy efficiency measures, but we have some that carry rather a high rate of VAT. The supply and installation of this equipment can be charged at a 5 per cent rate and I hope the Minister will look at this favourably. I suspect the Minister will say that this is something he must talk to the Treasury about, and I appreciate that point; but if we are serious about this we need to be consistent across the board on how we apply VAT to energy efficiency measures, products and installation. I beg to move.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

I was a member of the Treasury team when VAT was first introduced in 1972. It was one of the principles of the then Government that it should be as simple a tax as possible. There were of course some major exclusions from VAT, for instance all food and children’s clothes, but I well remember my noble friend Lord Higgins, who was dealing with the Finance Bill, saying that it was a simple uniform tax to be extended across the range of products and services, apart from those that were specifically excluded.

Since then Governments, no doubt of all persuasions, have found themselves led down a path of adding more complications to VAT. I have sympathy with what my noble friend has suggested, because these are clearly energy-saving and carbon-saving measures, which one would wish to encourage. However, to use VAT and the tax system to do that seems to me to go against the principle of keeping VAT as simple a tax as possible.

VAT is now substantially higher than it was when it was first introduced, for reasons that we can all understand, although that is not within the competence of the Committee. Wisely, my noble friend’s amendment places this firmly in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although it could not be with anybody else, as my right honourable friend the Chancellor is the Minister in charge of the tax system. However, I sound a note of caution on beginning to extend lower rates of VAT to other services and products, notwithstanding that one might have some sympathy with what is being sought. Having said that, I should be interested to hear what the Minister has to say in reply.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Maddock and Lord Jenkin of Roding

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Noakes has indicated, Amendment 20MA in my name follows a recommendation from the British Property Federation. The federation makes the important point—which I may have made earlier—that the energy-efficiency supply sector does not have a good record of approaching private rented properties. It is much easier to take the low-hanging fruit provided by the owner-occupier properties, where the owner is the one paying the energy bills. The private rented sector has hitherto not been approached formally—other than perhaps in a number of cases—but that needs to happen. Therefore, the suggestion in my amendment is—as my noble friend Lady Noakes has said—that there should be a clear review of the efforts made to bring this whole process to the attention of both landlords and tenants.

I imagine that many noble Lords will share my experience of having people in their families who are both landlords and tenants—some are landlords and some are tenants. Of course, the biggest single problem is always to get both parties to see that an improvement will be to both their advantages. That will require a considerable effort. All that I am saying is that the review must take account of the efforts that are being and could be made to spread the awareness both of the process and of the mutual advantage that will come to landlords from the enhancement of the value of their property, and to tenants from lower energy bills and perhaps a more comfortable house. That will take some effort. The review must recognise that and form a view on how successful the measures have been to date.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, further to my noble friend’s comment about the record of the private rented sector in this area, he is absolutely right that we have not seen its efforts in any great quantity. However, I remind him that one or two schemes got grants under the Home Energy Conservation Act. If he cares to look back, I am sure that the Energy Saving Trust has records of the one or two schemes that were quite successful. Unfortunately, nobody ever looked at the statistics to see how those schemes might be grown in the rest of the country, but that is history. I also remember that one very good scheme was initiated by Westminster City Council.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 20AA and 20AB. I will be very brief because I believe I have covered quite a lot of this. We also have an amendment coming up later which is a little similar to amendments that I am speaking to here. I have already discussed the fact that I am concerned that we do not have a very good timetable for the regulations. Nevertheless, the Bill allows for some regulations to be made to deal with the worst properties, and that is what I have been assuming in some of my amendments. However, the Bill says that the Secretary of State “may”, and I have asked that it be “must”. If I had been well tutored by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, it would be “must”—I have put “shall”, but I think we all know what I mean, so let us leave it at that for now and not have a long discussion about may, shall and must.

I have already indicated that I think that if landlords are not complying with the regulations for the very worst properties—my noble friend Lord Best said this in speaking to other amendments—and if they are not letting these properties which, frankly, probably none of us in this Room would want to live in, then we need to be a bit clearer about how and when we are going to act. At the moment, under the housing health and safety rating system, where there are health hazards, the local authorities can go in, do the work and charge people for them. It is a far more effective way than fining people, because if we fine people, as I said, the work does not actually get done. It is clear that the Minister could bring in regulations in this legislation and the penalty put forward on the face of the Bill is £5,000. I have suggested that we make it £10,000, but it is clear from my Amendment 20AA that I prefer that we have local authorities going in and doing the work rather than fining, because then you actually get it done. At this stage in proceedings, I will not say anything else, and I beg to move.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I get the impression that we are coming up against the problem of balance that I referred to in a speech made some hours ago. It is now getting to the point where, if these amendments are accepted, the Bill will expect local authorities to take fairly drastic enforcement action. The noble Lord, Lord Best, will know much more about this than I do, but I have always been given to understand that local authorities already have quite substantial powers under the housing health and safety rating system, which can be used to tackle houses where tenants suffer excess cold and, no doubt, other factors. But the real problem is that these powers are very rarely used. The noble Lord, Lord Best, made the point that local authorities have many other duties, that they do not have enough environmental health officers, and that with the stringencies under which they now have to operate, it is not expected that they will be in a position to recruit more. Faced with pressures on resources and competing priorities, I wonder where the sense is in landing them with still more duties. Indeed, one has to ask what the probability is of such new duties being enforced.

There is no point in substantially increasing penalties and in introducing other measures that enable local authorities to take over houses, improve them and then charge the landlord, if no one is going to enforce them. Increasing the fine from £5,000 to £10,000 will do absolutely nothing if the notices are not enforced. I will sound a note of caution on this. We should not expect local authorities, over the next few years, to take substantial action when they are well known for not using the powers that they already have under the system that I have just mentioned. Again, I am just sounding a note of caution and I hope that the Minister will look at some of these proposals with a fairly cold and analytical eye to assess whether they will improve the Bill and increase the chance of the objectives that we all support being achieved, or whether this will be the point at which landlords simply throw up their hands and say, “Blow the lot of you, we are not going to re-let”.