Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust Inquiry

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the noble Lord’s point. Like many things in this report, we will need to consider exactly how the details of the system will work. Generally, on whistleblowing and giving people the opportunity to make their views known, we have already taken steps to try to protect and support whistleblowers. We are funding a helpline to support them, we are embedding rights in their employment contracts, and we are issuing new guidance. We will be studying the report to see whether there are any further procedural or legal measures, and I hope that we will be able to provide more information to the noble Lord in due course.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, would that it were only the Mid Staffordshire hospital that was guilty of the kind of wrongdoing that we have been talking about tonight. My noble friend has made a wonderful, genuinely caring, speech about what has been happening and his determination to stop it. However, I feel very strongly about this, because I have tried for years and years, from 2002 onwards, to bring cases to this House. We should sometimes listen to people, here and in the other House, who bring cases before their House to be considered.

As many Members know, I produced a long document of 26 cases of the various bad treatment of patients. I went to endless trouble to make absolutely certain that every fact I put forward was correct, and that each patient for whom I pleaded had given me full permission to raise his or her case. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, might remember the occasion when I went to him with a long and detailed dossier of these cases. It was certainly not his fault, but a number of those 26 cases were never investigated at all, and I never got an answer. I even tried to get through this House a parents’ protection Bill, which was quietly squashed at the time. My plea to my noble friend is that he also lets Members of Parliament, in one House or the other, be heard. They do not raise cases for fun but because of their feeling for the patients or relatives who have contacted them. I ask him please to listen in future, because what they say is of crucial importance.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I very much agree with the broad point that my noble friend is making. One of the recurring themes of the report is that whomever complaints came from—family or whoever—they were not being listened to. I am sure that my noble friend will have noted the part of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s Statement that announced that there will be a complaints review, which will be jointly led by Ann Clwyd MP—that makes the point about Parliament being involved in this process—and Professor Tricia Hart, chief executive of South Tees Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust. We need to make sure that we have these proper mechanisms and that where there are concerns, they are raised and listened to.

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Monday 30th April 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Richard, for his introduction to the debate and for his chairmanship of the Joint Committee. His stamina and determination were both fully tested in his chairmanship of a very diverse and opinionated group of parliamentarians. I declare an interest not only as a member of that committee but as one of the signatories to the alternative report. There were 12 of us—just one short of half the Joint Committee. Our group of 12 was also diverse, with MPs and Peers from both the Labour and Conservative Parties, and with Cross-Bench and episcopal support. Some of us supported a fully elected second Chamber; others did not.

However, the crucial and fundamental starting point on which we all agreed was that the draft Bill and White Paper offer a misleading prospectus for change. Reading them, that is apparent from the start. The introduction to the White Paper, strongly emphasised by the Deputy Prime Minister in his evidence, says that,

“it is important that those who make the laws of the land should be elected by those to whom those laws apply”.

The House of Lords is of course part of the legislative process—we scrutinise legislation and suggest amendments to the Commons—but every single decision that goes into law is ultimately a Commons decision. When I was a young civil servant, I was told that that is why the Commons votes Aye and No and we in the Lords vote only Content and Not-Content. The lawmakers—the ultimate decision takers—are the Commons, because they are elected.

Another questionable premise is set out in the summary of proposals which deals with powers. The summary says that it is proposed to elect the Lords without changes to the fundamental relationship with the Commons which, it claims, rests partly on the Parliament Acts and on Commons financial privilege. Commons primacy rests on the simple fact that the Commons is elected and we are not. Erskine May makes this absolutely plain in the section that deals with the power and jurisdiction of Parliament. On primacy, Erskine May states:

“The dominant influence enjoyed by the House of Commons within Parliament may be ascribed principally to its status as an elected assembly, the Members of which serve as the chosen representatives of the people”.

On financial privilege, it states:

“As such the House of Commons possesses the most important power vested in any branch of the legislature, the right of imposing taxes upon the people and of voting money for the public service”.

Moreover, the preamble to the Parliament Act 1911 states that the Act was necessary because the Lords was not,

“constituted on a popular … basis”.

That is, it was not elected. Once the Lords is elected, the reasons for the Parliament Act are eroded. Both Houses will be constituted on a popular basis and contain, as Erskine May says,

“the chosen representatives of the people”.

Despite these arguments, it is still possible to argue that, as part of the legislative machinery, Members of this House should indeed be elected. One can mount a logical and sustainable argument to support that. What is not logical or sustainable is to argue that Commons primacy and the current relationship between the two Houses will be unchanged. The Government were obviously aware of the problem and proposed Clause 2 of the draft Bill. We took a great deal of evidence on Clause 2. Only two supporters gave evidence in favour of it—the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, and the Minister responsible, Mr Harper. The entire Joint Committee agreed that Clause 2 is a nonsense—unworkable and misconceived. However, many of us believe that there is more to it than that. There is a fundamental flaw in the Bill, which is the unbridgeable gap between the Government’s proposals for electing the House of Lords and the continuation of Commons primacy.

An elected House of Lords may well strengthen democracy. Having campaigned, canvassed and got support, Members would be elected on the basis of a mandate. They would represent their electors and be expected to exercise a mandate on behalf of those electors. The Government seem to think that democracy is solely about elections, but it is about the elected acting on behalf of their electorate. Why should an elected Peer subjugate the wishes of his or her electorate to those of an elected MP? What is the logic of continuing Commons primacy after the Lords is elected?

The Government have one basic answer to that question: do as much as possible to distance the elected Peer from his or her electorate. The supporters of the draft Bill claim that, if enacted, it would strengthen our democracy and the House would be more democratic and legitimate. However, at every point, the draft Bill and the White Paper seek to distance the elected Peer from their electors. They are quite open about this. The 15-year term is designed to ensure that the Commons mandate is always fresher. The non-renewable nature of the Lords’ term and the block on an elected Lord standing for the Commons have nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with protecting MPs from locally elected Peers who may become just a bit too popular.

The huge multi-constituencies of more than 500,000 people will ensure distance between the electors and the elected. These measures will not achieve their ends—that of protecting the Commons. Nor are they anything like as democratic as they should be. Elected Peers with a 15-year term, representing more than 500,000 voters, will be alongside MPs with five-year terms and constituencies of around 76,000. Will a Peer who is entrenched for 15 years, representing 500,000 and possibly elected by thousands more than the local MP, have more or less weight than the local MP?

Secondly, there is self-evidently little or no accountability in this system. At one point in the Joint Committee’s discussions, I was told that this is not about accountability. I may be wrong but I thought accountability was part and parcel of a modern democracy. The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, is quite right: of course, we need reform. I support the sort of reform put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. We could take that forward now, but then we would need to turn to the much bigger and more serious question of House of Lords elections. Electing the Lords would change the political and constitutional landscape of this country and would affect the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies. It demands serious consideration of electoral systems, including indirect elections, but above all it needs an honest and clear determination of what the new relationship between the two Houses will be. To achieve that we need to do two things. First, we need to reconvene the Joint Committee on Conventions originally chaired by my noble friend Lord Cunningham. The Deputy Prime Minister says that the conventions will evolve. We cannot run a country on a “let us see what happens” basis. That would be constitutionally disastrous and utterly irresponsible. No Government worth their salt should even contemplate doing so.

The second thing that we need to do is to set up a properly comprehensive constitutional convention to work through all the questions that need answers. I know opponents of this say that it constitutes kicking the measure into the long grass, but that is a feeble answer to such a serious question. A constitutional convention is the responsible and sensible way to resolve the huge questions that the supporters of the Bill have so conspicuously failed to answer. We did it for Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, so why not do it for the United Kingdom as a whole? Why should our constitutional settlement be treated with any less care and respect than those of our constituent parts? Of course, political decisions need to be taken on this matter but we need to do so much more than that. We need to hear from the people of this country what they think.

Therefore, ultimately, we need a referendum. I understand why the Liberal Democrats are so opposed to that; the AV result must have been a terrible shock to them. However, they argue, and the noble Lord the Leader of the House has argued, that there is no need for a referendum because at the 2010 election all three parties supported the election of the House of Lords. However, the noble Lord needs to remember that no one actually won the 2010 election. In fact, like us, the Liberal Democrats lost seats. The only party that won seats was his party, which said that this was a third-term issue. Real democracy means electing the Lords with commensurate powers, as the main report says—a point left out by many who have spoken on this issue this afternoon. We were agreed on the need to have commensurate powers and for the individual to have the power to act on behalf of his or her electorate as a Minister, Secretary of State, even Prime Minister, and to be part of a properly constituted democratic body.

In a speech that he made in December last year, the Deputy Prime Minister accused this House of having only a “veneer of expertise”. I put it to your Lordships that this Bill will not do because it has only a veneer of democracy.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, I entirely agree with her remarks about primacy, but is there not also a concern that such a system would rob us completely of the independent Peers in this House?

House of Lords: Reform

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I am sure that issues such as where new Peers may or may not park are at the top of the agenda in the highest echelons of the Government. I too have heard this rumour but I have no idea where it came from. I thought initially that it was something to do with the Cross Benches as there was a letter in one of the newspapers from a leading Cross-Bench Member. There is no plan to pack the House with at least 60 government supporters. It would look absurd and it would be absurd.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, if it becomes possible for that figure to come out—we all appreciate the difficulties that have been enunciated—can we be sure that, at the same time as it is published, figures for the expense of running the House of Commons and of running the current House of Lords are side by side with it?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand the point that my noble friend is making. The comparative figures between this House and the House of Commons are already in the public domain and are well understood. As I said, this House provides very good value for money.

House of Lords: Facilities

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am a great fan of the coalition and if “comrade” it must be, then “comrade” it is. I agree with my noble friend. This is not about office space; it is about democracy and authority, as the House knows well. I also recognise that there are many disagreements about this view.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, is it not the case that any current list of sitting Peers in this House—with pictures, large and small—depicts a much greater number than ever attend? Would it not be possible, bearing in mind how this inflates the look of the numbers of this place, to ask people who have not been here for years whether they wish to continue on the list of working Peers?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, there will be an opportunity for noble Lords to retire permanently from the House, but I disagree with one aspect of what my noble friend said. There should always be room to speak for Peers who may not come very often but who, when they come, are worth listening to, which is not always the case with some noble Lords who speak very regularly.

House of Lords Reform Bill

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, that is a central question in this debate. The leadership of the noble Lord’s party and mine and the Liberal Democrats are so keen on an elected House because they believe philosophically and rationally that at this stage, 100 years after it was first mooted, it is time to move on to a House selected on a political basis. Why? Because political authority, which we wield in this House, should only be wielded with a clear mandate of the people. Whether it would make things better is a good philosophical question which is very hard to answer. I dare say some things might be better; some things might be worse. But overall, when a second Chamber took a decision with the backing of the electorate it would be more authoritative and would have greater impact on another place and on the Government of the day.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, if the determination to follow and ensure democracy in this country is the aim of the Government and of us all, why is this suggestion now before us as a serious move when not one indication of public demand for this change has been made? In the many years I was a Member of the other place, I got not one request for this, either in a surgery or in thousands and thousands of letters. There are no marches; there are no banners waving about it. Where did it come from?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, 100 years ago the Parliament Act was passed, which certainly recommended that we should move forward on a popular basis. It is true that in the last 10 or 15 years there has been increased interest in electing a second Chamber; indeed the previous Government had numerous Joint Committees and White Papers on it. For those of us who argue for an elected Chamber, it is also true that it is very difficult to do so in the light of the fact that this House, currently constituted, does the job it is asked to do extremely well and effectively. Therefore I rely on the answer I gave the noble Lord, Lord Howarth: that it is ultimately about authority of the mandate and giving us the ability to wield that authority more effectively.

House of Lords: Membership

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Monday 14th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, over time, we shall certainly wish to produce what is in the coalition agreement.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, is it not the case that this House always gives way in the end to the other place, because its Members are elected and we are not? If we were elected, would we not deny such possibilities occurring? Surely we would be bound to hold to our rights as well.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I accept that possibility, but there are well known processes for dealing with disagreements between both Houses. It is not without precedent. Over the past 40 years, the House of Lords and the House of Commons have come to disagreements that could only be resolved by turning to the Parliament Act.

Public Disorder: Policing

Baroness Knight of Collingtree Excerpts

Monday 13th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, Lord Callaghan had wise things to say from time to time, and I am sure that that was one of them. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, referred to a relatively small number. That was our assessment on some of the earlier demonstrations, but we have increasingly taken the view that that is not so much the case—that this was a much larger number of individuals who were looking for trouble, and looking to make trouble and to use violence as a form of making their views heard.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, will my noble friend Lord Strathclyde comment on the statement made by the Minister last Thursday that the order ensuring Peers and MPs’ entry to Parliament has now been dropped? Is he aware that a top constitutional expert in this House has assured me this morning that Peers have not suspended that order, so presumably they still have such rights? Does he agree that if demonstrators and accompanying anarchists are aware that they are able to halt even a part of the work of Parliament, we have reached a dangerous situation indeed?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite correct to say that nothing should be done outside this building which stops either of the Houses from being able to continue their work, and I am glad to say that nothing last Thursday or on any of the previous demonstrations allowed that to happen. But obviously there can be occasions when so many people have gathered outside that it is difficult to keep every entrance and exit on the estate open.

On the question of the sessional orders, they are of course in place, but my noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire wisely explained their effect and raised some doubts in the mind of the House as to their efficacy. This morning I held a discussion, and with the agreement of the Leader of the Opposition, the Convenor, my noble friend Lord McNally and the Lord Speaker, we have asked the Clerk of the Parliaments and the acting Black Rod to report to me and the Lord Speaker on two matters. First, they will report on the effect of the current sessional order passed in the Lords and whether it remains useful, particularly as the equivalent order is no longer passed by another place at the start of each Session and, secondly, how the input of the House authorities into police operations around Parliament works specifically to seek to ensure access for Members and staff. I hope that my noble friend and the rest of the House will take that as a serious attempt to clarify what the situation is in this House so that Peers approaching police lines with their passes will be given the access they are due so as to continue their work.