Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness King of Bow and Lord Harris of Haringey

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, raised some interesting issues. However, I am slightly disappointed that he did not attempt to sort out some other problems at the same time, as a number of issues such as product descriptions and advertisements of the size or quantity of goods, particularly food products, could usefully be addressed in this amendment. If he gets the traditional rebuff that Members of the Committee expect from the Minister, he might want to consider including those issues as additional items when he brings the amendment back on Report.

I have noticed a tendency for supermarkets to surreptitiously change the size of products, usually food products but also others, as a means of covertly increasing the price, so things which were previously sold at 140 grams weight are now sold at 120 grams weight. Conveniently, the label moves from the front of the packaging to somewhere at the back, often to a place where it is difficult to read. These are all issues that could usefully be addressed if we are trying to simplify and improve the quality of product descriptions and amendments. It is pertinent that we should look at it.

The noble Lord also highlights in his proposed new schedule the anomaly that exists in the markings on beer glasses. However, for those of us who drink rather more wine than beer, there is even more of an anomaly as places that sell wine by the glass may claim that the glass contains 150 millilitres, or whatever it is, but when you look at it, to the untutored eye, it does not look as though it is anything like that amount. I have on occasion challenged this in restaurants and been told, “Sorry, it’s a big mistake. We have given you the small measure rather than the large”, and a smidgen more appears. However, if one is trying to rationalise this—and the motivation of the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, is entirely helpful in addressing this issue—you might as well try to get a number of other things right. Between now and Report perhaps he and the ministerial team will see what else can be got right and included in the Bill.

[Baroness King of Bow (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, makes a persuasive argument, to which I listened with great interest. It is interesting to note that we use metres and kilometres for our athletics, miles per gallon for our cars, pints for our milk and beer, miles for our speed limits, feet for our height measurements, and our distances are often measured in yards. As the noble Lord pointed out, we have been hemming and hawing on this issue for 800 years, so I doubt that we will sort it out in the next eight minutes. Suffice it to say that Amendment 81 would safeguard a critical element of British heritage, not to mention a key aspect of British identity—the right to buy beer and milk in pints. For some reason, the self-esteem of the British people depends on it. I thank the noble Lord for bringing this issue before us. As my noble friend Lord Harris said, the motivation behind these amendments is entirely helpful. I hope that we will get a thoughtful response from the Minister and I look forward to returning to this on Report.

Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness King of Bow and Lord Harris of Haringey

Monday 27th October 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness King of Bow]

My Lords, Amendments 50C and 56A both seek to ensure that the final provider of services approves any website offering services through them. This area is the digital equivalent of the cowboy mechanic charging people left, right, and centre for services they do not need. We know it is important to take action on copycat websites: the question is, how far will we go?

I start by examining how far they go to con consumers out of money. The examples are legion. I shall not detain the Committee for too long, but I will follow the top three copycat websites with a special commendation for con artistry, because I simply could not resist. Here are the top three copycat websites, in reverse order, identified in a poll of 1,750 people for moneysavingexpert.com. These people were all caught or nearly caught by those website scams.

In third place are websites for driving licence applications and renewals. They are supposed to cost £20 but these websites were charging up to £80. In second place are passport applications and renewals. They are supposed to cost £137; people were being charged up to £237. In first place are European health insurance cards. These are free, yet hundreds of people were being charged £25 for a free service.

There is a special commendation for con artistry. This goes to the copycat websites covering tax returns, because they are simply superb at what they do; that is, conning and scamming people. As we know, HMRC provides a free service to all taxpayers, yet the taxreturngateway.com website charges consumers between £150 and £1,000 for processing a self-assessment tax return. The company said this was justified because forms were checked for mistakes, but Which? points out that this is clearly misleading as that is exactly what the HMRC official site does.

You might think that you would have to be a bit of an idiot to pay for a free service; in that case I put myself in the idiot bracket. To be slightly gentler, we might be called idiots/people in a rush. You know how it is: you have a lot of things to do, you go online, and you click on what you believe to be an official site. I did that before I travelled to America. Instead of paying $14 for an ESTA visa I paid $40. Yes, I did feel like an idiot when I realised that I had paid a 300% surcharge simply because I was convinced I was on an official website when I was not.

The important point is that as the Government move to put more public services online, it is incumbent upon them to take all possible measures to prevent public service users and consumers being ripped off on an hourly basis. The Government have taken action on this. It is good news, for instance, that Google have removed misleading sponsored adverts. But at the end of the day it is the Government who need to take responsibility in this area, certainly more than a private company.

This is about consumers being legally scammed and ripped off in a calculated manner. The new single web domain, GOV.UK, is indeed welcome for providing the best way to access government services. But the Government can do more to prevent this problem at source, and this is what the amendments propose. Agencies should be able to detect, for instance, when mass applications are coming from the same IP source, because at that point there is an opportunity to evaluate whether the companies are providing a service that is actually value for money. If they are not, these websites can then be blocked by the agency.

For instance, many noble Lords in this Room will presumably be aware of what TfL has done, for instance. Consumers were regularly being overcharged for the congestion charge by copycat websites, with between £2 and £8 being added to their payment. TfL has now said in a public consultation:

“We are proposing an amendment to the Congestion Charging legislation so that we can refuse to accept Congestion Charge payments which are made by these unofficial websites or other unauthorised third parties which mislead road users into paying a fee in addition to the Congestion Charge. TfL will accept payments from third parties for someone else’s vehicle where there is no charge or commercial gain for making payment on their behalf; for example, payments made by people using car hire vehicles. We are planning to refuse payments from unauthorised third parties from December 2014”.

That is incredibly welcome, but instead of every single provider having to change legislation, why can we not ensure through this legislation that other providers can do the same?

The Transport Select Committee is the latest body to criticise the Government on this, saying:

“It is illegal to deliberately mislead the public or obtain money by fraud; the agencies providing services on behalf of the Government should do everything practicable to prevent users of their services from being misled or becoming the victims of fraud”.

TfL’s work here is a really strong and practical example of why just getting Google to police the internet is not the only thing on which the Government should concentrate. It is not the only practicable action that the Government can take.

Another point is that companies and service providers want to be able to control who sells on their services. We can all understand that—sometimes they may be a good thing. One option to explore is around having approved retailers, and we have that example with the Post Office. The ASA has also taken action on misleading adverts and websites. Can the Minister confirm that it cannot take further action against those websites as they exist at present? What further protections will the Bill give consumers in dealing with that problem, above and beyond what the Government have done to date? Does the Minister see a case for expanding “check and send” style services available in local post offices, where they provide a clear benefit for consumers?

In summary, I recognise that the Government have taken action in this area. Indeed, the letter from the Cabinet Office Minister dated 8 October illuminates the impact of government activity to date, which is a very good thing. But the fact is that clearly more could be done to stop copycat websites at source. That is what these amendments ask for, and that is why I beg to move the amendment.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I repeat my declaration of interest: I chair National Trading Standards. Its particular relevance to this amendment is that that body funds and supports the work of the National Trading Standards eCrime unit, which has recently taken action that has led to the arrest of a number of people associated with the delivery of copycat websites.

In moving this amendment, my noble friend highlighted the sorts of issues that arise in this regard. The most striking example is that of the European health insurance card, which is provided free. Those who have applied for renewal, as I have recently, will have found it an extremely simple and easy process. The fact that people were persuaded to pay up to £25 demonstrates how easy it was for the scammers behind some of these sites.

It is also clear that this is extremely big business, and there is no doubt that the area is under-reported. My noble friend in moving this amendment admitted her embarrassment in realising that she had been caught in this way. I rather suspect that most of us would feel embarrassed and stupid. Because people do not apply that often for European health insurance cards or passports, they would simply write it off to experience and hope to remember to do it differently in 10 years’ time, or whenever the time came.

The reality is that this area has been under-reported for many years. I am reluctant to comment too much on the arrests that have taken place, or the individuals involved, but I saw an article in the Mail on Sunday, which no doubt checked its legal position, about the scale of the revenues, and so on, that may be involved in this. It is clear to me that we may be talking about tens of millions of pounds, and maybe more, which individual citizens have paid unnecessarily through these copycat websites. The profits for those behind them are no doubt extremely large. So something needs to be done.

Again, my noble friend referred to the recent letter from the Cabinet Office setting out a number of initiatives that should take place, but there are a number of areas where everyone needs to make their contribution. Clearly, we as members of the public need to be better informed, and I am pleased that the National Trading Standards eCrime unit recently produced a public information guide called The Owl and the CopyCat, which was designed to demonstrate to people exactly how they ought to behave, and the dangers of going on copycat websites. So the public have a responsibility.

Secondly, the search engines have a responsibility. It may well be in their commercial interest to accept ads from these dubious websites and to place them at the top of search results, but that is not acceptable, and I am pleased that the Government have sought to persuade the search engines that this is inappropriate.

Thirdly, there is a responsibility on law enforcement and trading standards to investigate and to establish whether offences have been committed in terms of misleading the public.

The fourth area relates to the legitimate websites themselves. This is what the amendments in this group are all about. They will know—they must know—where the money is coming from. They will know if it is being channelled through particular IP addresses. They should take steps to monitor what is happening; they should take steps to intervene. The amendment clearly makes it an offence to charge unreasonably for any services associated with applying for a particular public service: the additional assistance element. The second amendment in the group suggests that the legitimate websites should look at whether the charges are legitimate, appropriate and proportionate to what is required.

I mentioned the European health insurance card. The process for applying for this is extremely simple. It is difficult to see what conceivable value additional assistance could provide as far as that is concerned; you would still have to provide your national insurance number or whatever it is to the copycat website, and that is all you have to enter. I recently had the experience of applying for a Russian visa for my daughter. This is an arduous process at the best of times. It is even more arduous when dealing with the bureaucracy of the Russian state. When I embarked on the process, I found what I assumed were a number of copycat websites. I thought, “No, I won’t be caught like this, I’ll go through the GOV.UK website, which will refer me to the correct Russian visa site and so on”. I embarked on the process and I have to say that at the end of it I would happily have paid somebody fifty quid to deal with the bureaucracies involved.

That is why we should take this back to what is an appropriate and legitimate charge for additional assistance. What the copycat websites are doing is saying somewhere in the small print that they are not the official site but are providing a service. We need to get beyond that and ask, first, whether the service that they are providing is necessary and, secondly, whether the charge that they are making is proportionate to the complexity of what they are providing to the consumer.

These amendments go beyond that to say that it would be entirely possible for the official websites to determine which additional service providers are authorised and to produce a scale of legitimate charges that could be made.

If we are placing an obligation on members of the public to be more vigilant and to carry out their own due diligence, and if we are placing an obligation on the search engine providers to be more vigilant and provide that service, surely it is legitimate to say to the legitimate websites that they should exercise due diligence and provide information and a measure by which we can determine whether any additional assistance provided is worth it. Where it is not, they should not accept payment from those sources.