Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Tyrie

Committee stage
Wednesday 31st January 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, Amendment 80 raises the particular issue that was raised at Second Reading: whose interest is the CMA defending? Is it just the users of the product or service, or is there a wider citizens’ interest that needs to be taken into account? I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, for adding their names to this amendment and I look forward to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord Tyrie, on his amendment.

Part 1 has a specific focus on identifying the big tech companies that are so large and powerful that they can be categorised as having “strategic market status”. From the CMA’s operational plan, we know that it aims to identify three or four of these companies, in the first instance, for deep scrutiny about their behaviours and anti-competitive practices. We have a good idea which companies are likely to be in the frame for all this. They are increasingly fundamental to our lives: they help to run our public services, they store our personal data, they shape our purchase choices and social activities, they underpin our research and innovation, and they help to determine the health of our economy. Their wealth is bigger than that of many of the UK’s trading partners and, if they took their business elsewhere, our economy would certainly suffer.

When Part 1 talks about the CMA having regard

“in particular to the benefits for consumers”

that its conduct requirements will bring, you begin to wonder how it will identify the consumer interest, because, in this context, we are all consumers. We argue that this is no longer a transactional process where an individual consumer buys a product or service from one of these companies. Whether we like it or not, the behaviour of these companies influences all our lives, even if, as individuals, we do not engage in the digital world. Of course, this impact will be magnified as the AI applications speed up across our lives and as public services become digitalised.

Our amendment poses the challenge of why the CMA is acting only for consumers when it should be acting in the interests of all our citizens to ensure protection of the greater good. We raised this issue with Ministers when we met them recently and they helpfully sent a follow-up letter, conceding that the DMU taskforce had recommended that the DMU’s overarching statutory duty should be

“to further the interests of consumers and citizens in digital markets”.

It was recognised that competition in digital markets had deep interactions with a range of other issues, such as data privacy and media plurality.

However, the Government rejected the citizens’ interest proposal on the basis that it created some unhelpful overlaps with other regulators. We accept that there is some overlap with the other regulators, particularly Ofcom, but we argue that there are also large swathes of digital competition that do not easily fit under the remits of other regulators. As such, in many digital activities, no one is protecting the interests of citizens as a whole. Also, there is already a requirement for the DMU to consult key regulators before it makes an intervention, which would enable any overlap to be addressed at that point. While the Government are concerned not to make the remit of the DMU too broad, we counterargue that they risk making it too narrow if they do not add in a citizens’ interest provision.

This is clearly a probing amendment and we may well not have found the right wording, but I would be interested to hear the views of other noble Lords about whether these definitions should be broadened to encompass the interests of all citizens in the deliberation of the CMA. I beg to move.

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, as well as speaking to Amendment 80, I will say a few words about Amendment 83A in my name, which is in some ways related.

The point just made was extremely important and correct: in whose interests are these bodies acting? The answer should always be people—all of us. Commissioner Vestager, responsible for competition in Brussels, made exactly this point in evidence on several occasions and in a couple of major speeches. She is a far-sighted and bold competition Commissioner. In practice, we are all consumers, so the word “consumer” should probably catch it, but it may not convey quite as much to the public as we would like.

My amendment was triggered by an exchange that I had with the noble Lord, Lord Vaizey, earlier in the scrutiny of the Bill. In response to a question of his to the Minister, I suggested that the CMA always operates under a duty to be proportionate. When I said that, I had in mind not so much the implications of the Human Rights Act for its effect on proportionality but a more general duty to respect best regulatory practice, under which specialist regulators operate, as far as I know. Usually, this is understood to mean transparency, accountability, proportionality, consistency and, where relevant, action targeted only at cases that really require it. Some people talk about efficiency and economy in the same breath. Although I have not found that in any statute, I expect that it is to be found in various statutes.

I have subsequently checked some of this out with the House of Commons Library and others. First, a duty such as I describe is written into the Water Act, the Gas Act, the Electricity Act and the Communications Act, among others, with very similar wording to that which I have just cited. In other words, Ofwat, Ofgem and Ofcom are all subject to such a duty. I have also checked that these duties are justiciable.

Secondly, I made another, unexpected, discovery. As a result of this legislation, the CMA will become an outlier among these specialist regulators. By this legislation, we are giving the CMA specific specialist responsibilities for the digital sector. In other words, it becomes a sector regulator. But, unlike with the other specialist regulators that I have just listed, no such statutory duty to adhere to the principles of best regulatory practice will be required of it. My amendment would correct that omission.

Late last week I discovered that the City of London Law Society had made roughly the same point in its submission on the Bill. The wording in my amendment is pretty much taken from that submission. At the time I tabled it, I had not discussed it with the City of London Law Society and, since then, I have had time only for a couple of minutes with it on the phone. I cannot think of a good reason for not applying this duty to the CMA, but I can think of plenty of reasons why it should be applied.

These duties on public bodies can appear to be little more than motherhood and apple pie but, as I have discovered over the years, they can influence behaviour in powerful public bodies in quite a big way, and usually for the better. I will illustrate that. Take an accounting officer who comes under pressure to do something that he or she considers inappropriate. That happens not infrequently, as those of us who have been on the inside, or on both sides, of the public body fence will know. With a statutory duty in place, the accounting officer is much better protected and placed to be able to say, “I’m not going to go ahead with that”. That is no doubt one of several reasons why these specialist regulators have these duties imposed on them: they serve as a reminder, a backstop, for securing good conduct from those at the top of organisations, particularly those with a high degree of statutory independence.

Now, the Government—on advice, no doubt—will point in response, probably in just a moment, to codes of conduct, guidelines and other documents that already require good regulatory practice. I can see the Minister smiling. I know most of these documents quite well—as a matter of fact, I contemplated reading them out myself, but I will spare the Committee that pain and leave it to him to take the flak. The department’s impact assessments should work, in principle, to provide some of the heavy lifting as well, and they are audited by the NAO. I have seen that scrutiny in action, and it does far less to improve behaviour than a statutory obligation. It is the latter that really concentrates the mind.

More and more as we examine the Bill, the absence of a general duty on the CMA seems to be of a piece with the approach taken right across the draft legislation. We are creating a body with unprecedented powers and unprecedentedly feeble avenues for the securing of accountability. We are creating ideal conditions for executive overreach. All the necessary ingredients are being put in place as we legislate here.

First, there is the long history of patchy to poor scrutiny by Parliament, particularly by the Commons, of the CMA. As I may have pointed out on more than one occasion, I was its very first chairman ever to appear before the BEIS Select Committee, and I secured my audience by request—I said that I really would like to come along—which gives you an idea of the distance between the committee and the activities of the CMA. Of course—and I do not mean this disparagingly to anybody in this House—it is the Commons Select Committee that really counts when it comes to delivering punchy cross-examination and accountability, or at least counts most.

Parliament could do a better job, which I think was the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, made on Monday, but it would be a profound mistake, even if we got the improvements that she is proposing, to rely exclusively on Parliament to do the heavy lifting.

The first reason why we need this amendment is that we do not have much parliamentary scrutiny. Secondly, we have a body with a historically weak board, with most of the important decisions already delegated to the most senior executives, mixed-quality governance at best and a history of patchy to poor non-executive challenge of executive decisions. I realise that it is concerning that an ex-chairman should feel the need to put that on record, but it is necessary. Thirdly, as things stand, we are protecting the CMA from any substantive review at all of decisions on digital, which is a discussion we had earlier with respect to JR.

A fourth reason why this amendment is needed is that it now seems that the body is to be exempted from the core duties to conform to best regulatory practice which have been considered essential for all other sector regulators that I have checked out. My amendment would rectify that problem at least. I hope that the Minister will look favourably on the suggestion.

Digital Markets, Competition and Consumers Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Tyrie

Committee stage
Monday 22nd January 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I very much echo the thanks expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, to all the companies and business that have given evidence and come forward to speak to us. It is true that, for a number of them, they have taken risks to do that. It is a sad fact of life now that their very survival could be at stake if some of their concerns become public. That is why we are here today, I suppose. That is where the market has left us and there is a need to address that.

To pick up on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, about the CMA’s assessment, I think that we have had a useful discussion with the Minister around all that. I certainly want to look at Hansard and at the reassurances that the Minister has tried to give on this. I very much take the point, incidentally—as mentioned by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, in moving his amendment—that SMS status does not mean that they have done anything wrong, so I do not want to get too hung up about giving that status in the first instance. What is important is how we follow that up and look at their behaviour going forward. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, spelled out, there is a danger that, if we are not careful, those who are given that category will game the system. That is what we are all anxious about.

I am not sure that the wording achieves what the Minister wants. I think that we are all genuinely clear on the outcomes that we want, as the Minister said, but the current wording does not achieve that. The five-year forward plan is playing into the hands of the wrong people, and we will not come out with the outcomes that we want if we stick with the current wording, so I very much welcome the chance to have further discussion about that.

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

Before the noble Baroness leaves that point, I strongly endorse what she says. I make the point that we are here debating a set of powers that we would, in most contexts, otherwise consider extremely draconian, because there has already been abuse and market power has already been exercised in ways that we all consider unacceptable. That is why we need clarity on this point. We do not need to look into the crystal ball—we can read the book.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord very much for that insight. He is absolutely right, of course. We all understand his wealth of experience; it is very helpful to have his support on that issue.

I pick up on the amendment tabled by the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, to which the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and I have added our names. He rightly raised that the significant powers given to the Secretary of State to vary the conditions would lead to tech companies being considered to have strategic market status. As my noble friend Lord Knight said, the list in Clause 6 is quite generic. In a sense, that should be enough for us. None of the things in Clause 6 is time limited, so it should be enough for the CMA and the DMU to do their work.

There is concern, therefore, about how the Bill is currently worded, as it does not give any constraints to the Secretary of State to change the conditions, apart from the affirmative SI—and we can all rehearse the arguments about what that means for parliamentary accountability. The Minister might say that it is necessary to add new conditions if new anti-competitive practices come to light, but I feel that the current wording—and I think that the noble Viscount feels this, too—allows not just for new anti-competitive practices but for the current conditions to be watered down. That is our real concern. The noble Viscount gave an example about specifying particular forms of market practice, such as online sales and delivery, which would then apply to only one or two companies and not the ones that, as I think we all understand, should be in the frame. I was not absolutely convinced by what the Minister said on this issue. It is a bit of a running theme and, as several noble Lords said, we will come back to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny. Perhaps we can look at that in the round at a future point.

The Minister will be pleased to know that I support the government amendments. They make good sense and give clarification in the Bill, which we always like.

We continue to believe that Amendment 1 is necessary to enable the CMA to proceed with speed once the Bill is on the statute book. Nothing the Minister has said so far has persuaded me that the silence in the Bill on this issue is sufficiently reassuring. I hope that we can find a form of words—if not ours then a different form of words—that will allow the CMA to look backwards, giving it absolute reassurance that it can do so and that it will not have to repeat any of its activities. This is all about tightening up the wording. We will reflect on what the Minister said, and I hope that we can talk about this some more. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 8, I will also speak to my Amendments 9, 10, 13, 35, 37, 42, 45, 46, 57 and 58. I thank my noble friend Lady Ritchie, the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, for adding their names. The noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Tyrie, have some other amendments in this group to which I will respond at the end of this debate. However, I can confirm that we support the thrust of the noble Lords’ amendments and look forward to hearing their more detailed arguments in due course.

As I made clear at the outset, our concerns with this Bill are mainly about the detail, in particular the changes made by the Government at the very last minute on Report in the Commons. We support the model that is being proposed, although we share some of the concerns that will come up in this debate and in later ones about the extent of the widespread powers that have been given to the CMA and the DMU in respect of the big tech players, in particular their application to those being given strategic market status. The corollary to the decision to introduce this new approach is that the new power should be set out clearly in statute, which is the point that we have made, and that when it is used the DMU will need to be open and transparent to all those who have a legitimate interest.

There must be no question that the smaller challenger firms which—for various understandable reasons—may not be fully informed about discussions and negotiations between the DMU and potential SMS firms need to be able to access information about the regulatory framework and potential changes to it on an equal basis as the firms being considered for SMS status. How else will we achieve the balance that we are all aiming for in this Bill? Our amendments in this and other groups address this issue.

When this came up in the Commons, Minister Saqib Bhatti said:

“the Government agree that it is important that the DMU’s regulatory decisions are transparent and that the right information is available to the public”. —[Official Report, Commons, 20/11/23; col. 74.]

We agree with that. With respect, however, the DMU publishing summaries of decisions reached completely misses the point we are trying to make. The DMU must ensure that it has all the information it needs, including all the information held by challenger firms, before it makes decisions about SMS status and related matters. Challenger firms may have a different view of what SMS means to their businesses and consumers and it is unlikely that they will have perfect information about the DMU’s thinking. They will, however, certainly want to be engaged in the issues if they are made aware of them at the right time.

Many of us attended a helpful meeting with the CMA last week, where this issue was raised. It became clear that it already has good relations with a number of the bigger challenger firms. However, given that it is investigating anti-competitive behaviour, it is also clear that there will be many smaller start-up companies that will never be given a chance to get established because of the behaviour of the big players. We have a real concern about how we can make their voices heard too. We run the danger that the DMU will contact only the people it already knows about and will not hear from those who are perhaps most squeezed out of the process being investigated.

Our suggestion is that the DMU should have a statutory duty to send decision notices to third parties that it assesses are likely to be most affected by such a decision. To us, this does not seem to be unduly burdensome to the DMU. One could argue that a failure to know which challenger firms are likely to be affected could be very injurious to consumers and the economy at large. In the Commons, the Minister said he thought there would be “limited benefits” to introducing this requirement. I do not think the Government have made the case on this point and I hope they will think again. I also hope that they and the Minister will listen carefully to the points made in this debate.

In the last few weeks, we have met and received submissions from many challenger firms concerned about the Government’s position on the issue. They support the Bill but worry about the imbalance, as they fear it will have a deleterious effect on the regime. They have all made it clear that they support our amendments. I hope the Minister will be able to agree with our arguments. We think there is a strong case for involving the challenger firms at an earlier stage and giving them far more information. I would like to hear how and when the Government intend to do that. I beg to move.

[Lord Tyrie (Non-Afl)]

I declare a number of general interests with respect to this Bill. I am on the advisory board of BSV, a consumer class action being taken against crypto exchanges; I act as a consultant to DLA Piper; I have also had contact with many companies, several platforms and their advisors and many consumer groups about the Bill. As a former chairman of the CMA, I had a significant hand in constructing large parts of it. It is important that others bear in mind that anything I say on this is from the perspective of having been there for enough time to have taken too many of its ideas to heart. In fact, I have been lobbied in all directions on this Bill and for so long that I am losing count of which direction the lobbies all come from.