Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Harlech

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th April 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as someone who has been through the paper death registration process and grant of probate, which has something to do with why I am in your Lordships’ House, so I absolutely understand where the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, is coming from. I thank her for tabling these amendments to Clauses 133 and 142. They would require the Secretary of State to commission a review with a view to creating a single digital register for the registration of births and deaths and to conduct a review of the Government’s Tell Us Once scheme.

Clause 133 reforms how births and deaths are registered in England and Wales by enabling a move from a paper-based system of birth and death registration to registration in a single electronic register. An electronic register is already in use alongside the paper registers and has been since 2009. Well-established safety and security measures and processes are already in place with regard to the electronic infrastructure, which have proven extremely secure in practice. I assure noble Lords that an impact assessment has been completed to consider all the impacts relating to the move to an electronic register, although it should be noted that marriages and civil partnerships are already registered electronically.

The strategic direction is to progressively reduce the reliance on paper and the amount of paper in use, as it is insecure and capable of being tampered with or forged. The creation of a single electronic register will remove the risk of registrars having to transmit loose-leaf register pages back to the register office when they are registering births and deaths at service points across the district. It will also minimise the risk of open paper registers being stolen from register offices.

The Covid-19 pandemic had unprecedented impacts on the delivery of registration services across England and Wales, and it highlighted the need to offer more choice in how births and deaths are registered in the future. The provisions in the Bill will allow for more flexibility in how births and deaths are registered—for example, registering deaths by telephone, as was the case during the pandemic. Over 1 million deaths were successfully registered under provisions in the Coronavirus Act 2020. This service was well received by the public, registrars and funeral services.

Measures will be put in place to ensure that the identity of an informant is established in line with Cabinet Office good practice guidance. This will ensure that information provided by informants can be verified or validated for the purposes of registering by telephone. For example, a medical certificate of cause of death issued by a registered medical practitioner would need to have been received by the registrar before an informant could register a death by telephone. Having to conduct a review, as was proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, would delay moving to digital ways of working and the benefits this would introduce.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Can I just be clear? The noble Lord was quite rightly saying that there is going to be a move to digital, rather than paper, and we all support that. However, our amendment went one stage further and said that there should be one national digital scheme. In the impact assessment and the strategic direction, to which the noble Lord referred, is one national scheme intended so that registrars do not have the flexibility to do their own thing, with their own computer? Is that now being proposed?

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

The noble Baroness asks a fair question. A major thing is being proposed, so it is best that we work with our DWP colleagues, and I commit to writing to the noble Baroness and the Committee on that point.

On the amendment to Clause 142, while we agree with the aim of improving the Tell Us Once service, our view is that the only way to achieve this is by upgrading its technology. This work is under way and expected to take up to two years to complete. It will ensure that Tell Us Once continues to operate into the future, providing us with the ability to build on opportunities to improve its speed and efficiency.

Going back to what I said earlier, it would not be right to commit to undertake a review of the service while this upgrading work is ongoing, especially as any extension of the service would require a fundamental change in how it operates, placing additional burdens on registrars and citizens, and undermining that simplicity-of-service principle. For those who still wish to use a paper process, that option will remain. For the reasons that I have set out, I am not able to accept these amendments and I hope that the noble Baroness is happy not to press them.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to hear that there is some work ongoing on the registrar process and that the noble Lord will write with further details. Obviously, if this work is already happening and we have the same intent, we would accept that our amendment is superfluous, but I need to be a little more assured that that is the case.

I was a bit more disappointed with what the Minister was saying on Tell Us Once. I suspect that the technology upgrade to which he referred is only for the current scheme, which refers only to the public sector. However, our proposal and the Marie Curie proposal, which was very well argued, is that there is now a need to extend that to the private sector—to banks, telephone companies and so on.

I did not really hear the Minister saying that that was going to be the case but, if he is going to write, maybe he could embrace that as well. As I said, Tell Us Once is a hugely popular scheme and if we can extend it further to a wider group of organisations, that would be a very popular thing for the Government to do.

In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, for introducing his amendments so ably. When I read them, I had a strong sense of déjà vu as attempts by the Government to control the appointments and functioning of new regulators have been a common theme in other pieces of legislation that we have debated in the House and which we have always resisted. In my experience, this occurred most recently in the Government’s proposals for the Office for Environmental Protection, which was dealing with EU legislation being taken into by the UK and is effectively the environment regulator. We were able to get those proposals modified to limit the Secretary of State’s involvement; we should do so again here.

I very much welcome the noble Lord’s amendments, which give us a chance to assess what level of independence would be appropriate in this case. Schedule 15 covers the transition from the Information Commissioner’s Office to the appointment of the chair and non-executive members of the new information commission. We support this development in principle but it is crucial that the new arrangements strengthen rather than weaken the independence of the new commission.

The noble Lord’s amendments would rightly remove the rights of the Secretary of State to decide the number of non-executive members and to appoint them. Instead, his amendments propose that the chair of the relevant parliamentary committee should oversee appointments. Similarly, the amendments would remove the right of the Secretary of State to recommend the appointment and removal of the chair; again, this should be passed to the relevant parliamentary committee. We agree with these proposals, which would build in an additional tier of parliamentary oversight and help remove any suspicion that the Secretary of State is exercising unwarranted political pressure on the new commission.

The noble Lord’s amendments beg the question of what the relevant parliamentary committee might be. Although we are supportive of the wording as it stands, it is regrettable that we have not been able to make more progress on establishing a strong bicameral parliamentary committee to oversee the work of the information commission. However, in the absence of such a committee, we welcome the suggestion made in the noble Lord’s Amendment 256 that the Commons Science, Innovation and Technology Committee could fulfil that role.

Finally, we have tabled Amendment 259, which addresses what is commonly known as the “revolving door” whereby public sector staff switch to jobs in the private sector and end up working for industries that they were supposedly investigating and regulating previously. This leads to accusations of cronyism and corruption; whether or not there is any evidence of this, it brings the reputation of the whole sector into disrepute. Perhaps I should have declared an interest at the outset: I am a member of the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments and therefore have a ringside view of the scale of the revolving door taking place, particularly at the moment. We believe that it is time to put standards in public life back at the heart of public service; setting new standards on switching sides should be part of that. Our amendment would put a two-year ban on members of the information commission accepting employment from a business that was subject to enforcement action or acting for persons who are being investigated by the agency.

I hope that noble Lords will see the sense and importance of these amendments. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, for their amendments to Schedule 15 to the Bill, which sets out the governance structure of the new information commission.

The ICO governance reforms ensure its accountability to Parliament. Before I go any further, let me stress that the Government are committed to the ICO’s ongoing independence. We have worked closely with the Information Commissioner, who is supportive of the reforms, which they state allow the ICO

“to continue to operate as a trusted, fair and independent regulator”.

The Government’s view, therefore, is that this Bill is compatible with maintaining the free flow of personal data from Europe. These reforms have been designed carefully with appropriate safeguards in place to protect the information commission’s independence and ensure accountability before Parliament on important issues such as public appointments, money and accounts.

The Bill requires the Secretary of State to give the member a written statement of reasons for the removal and make public the decision to do so, ensuring accountability and transparency. This process is in line with standard practice for other UK regulators, such as Ofcom, which do not require parliamentary oversight for the removal of non-executives.

The chair can be removed only by His Majesty on an Address by both Houses, provided that the Secretary of State presents a report in Parliament stating that they are satisfied that there are serious grounds for removal, as set out in the Bill. This follows the process for the removal of the current Information Commissioner.

Greater performance measurement will help the ICO achieve its objectives and enable it to adjust its resources to prioritise key areas of work. This will also increase accountability to Parliament—a point raised by both noble Lords—organisations and the public, who have an interest in its effectiveness.

The Government are satisfied that these processes safeguard the integrity of the regulator, are in line with best practices for other regulators and, crucially, balance the importance of the information commission’s independence with appropriate oversight by the Government and Parliament as necessary. The regulator is, and remains, accountable to Parliament, not the Government, in its delivery of data protection regulation.

Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Harlech

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am having a senior moment as well. Where are the outcomes written? What are we measuring this against? I like the idea; it sounds great—management terminology—but I presume that it is written somewhere and that we could easily add children’s rights to the outcomes as the noble Baroness suggests. Where are they listed?

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, I think we should try to let the Minister make a little progress and see whether some of these questions are answered.

Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Lord Harlech

Committee stage
Monday 24th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harlech (Con)]

My Lords, as this is the first time I have spoken in Committee on the Bill, it is probably appropriate that I declare my farming and land management interests, as set out in the register.

I turn to Amendment 289 in the name of my noble friend Lord Randall of Uxbridge, and so eloquently introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Whitchurch, and Amendment 386 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock. I thank all noble Lords for laying these amendments and provide assurances that I share the same view as my noble friend Lord Caithness on the importance of helping nature to recover.

While these two amendments both refer to wild belts, they take somewhat different approaches. I will begin by addressing Amendment 289, which seeks to secure a land designation of a wild belt. This would provide protection for sites being managed for nature’s recovery, identified through local nature recovery strategies. I thank noble Lords for the recent constructive debate on local nature recovery strategies, which covered quite similar ground. As my noble friend Lord Benyon reassured the Committee, the Government share the desire for local nature recovery strategies to be reflected appropriately in local plans so that the planning system can play a more proactive role in nature recovery. This is something we committed to explicitly in the recent environmental improvement plan.

Where we differ is on the necessity of making amendments to this Bill to achieve this. Instead, we will rely on existing duties created under the Environment Act and the guidance which the Government have committed to produce. The language of this proposed amendment—to “act in accordance” with a new designation based on the local nature recovery strategy—would be more binding than previous amendments. While the Government are determined that the planning system should play an important role in nature recovery, the system still needs to balance this priority with other priorities. Requiring, in legislation, that planning must “act in accordance” with plans for nature recovery would hamper the ability of planning authorities to strike this balance.

Last month we published the regulations and statutory guidance needed for responsible authorities to begin preparation of local nature recovery strategies. We are now working to put in place the guidance on how local authorities should consider LNRS in their local plans. This will be published this summer and will deliver on the commitments we have made. Therefore, while I appreciate the intention of Amendment 289, the Government are not able to support it. I hope that the noble Baroness, on behalf of my noble friend, will be able to withdraw it.

Amendment 386, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, would require the Secretary of State to publish draft legislation to allow local authorities to propose wild-belt designations for the purpose of improving the results of environmental outcome reports. EORs sit alongside the Government’s commitments to support nature’s recovery and are intended to ensure that decision-makers have the facts they need when deciding whether to move forward with a specific plan or to permit a specific development. EORs will consider a range of environmental factors, including the influence of protected or designated spaces on the effects of the development, and the model of outcomes and indicators will allow the Government to reflect environmental priorities, including matters such as the preservation of wilderness.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman of Ullock, talked about the need for a joined-up approach. The local nature recovery strategy statutory guidance explains how areas for nature recovery should be identified, including how conditions should be spatially connected for nature recovery and existing areas of importance for nature. I know from my own experience on the Select Committee for land use—my noble friend Lord Caithness also raised this—about management. We need to see much better management, particularly of green-belt spaces which are neither very green nor have much biodiversity in them. This is a real opportunity for those areas to do a lot of what these amendments are proposing.

Noble Lords also referred to the commitments the Government have made on this issue. The recent levelling up White Paper reinforced that local nature recovery strategies will be reflected in plan-making. It has been mentioned several times, but the National Planning Policy Framework expects plans to identify, map and safeguard components of local wildlife-rich habitats and wider ecological networks, including the hierarchy of international, national and locally designated sites of importance for biodiversity, wildlife corridors and the stepping stones that connect them, and the areas identified by national and local partnerships for habitat management, enhancement, restoration and creation.

While the concept of a wild belt is intriguing, introducing a designation that is required for the purpose of improving the results of an EOR risks distorting the purpose of environmental assessment, which is to provide relevant environmental information in a digestible way to support effective decision-making. Therefore, I am not able to recommend that the Government support these amendments, but I hope I have provided noble Lords with the assurances they seek in order to withdraw them.

While Amendments 386 and 289 take different approaches from each other, and from the Government’s stated position, I hope I have reassured noble Lords that we are working towards the same aim—nature’s recovery—and that the approach we are taking through the powers under the Environment Act and subsequent guidance will achieve that aim.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have added their support, and the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, who agrees, normally, with so much of what we are debating. I am sorry we have a slight difference at this late point in the debate, but I am sure we can iron it out.

My noble friend Lady Hayman was quite right to emphasise the essential link between nature recovery and the planning system. This comes up in other amendments we will deal with during the course of the Bill, but this amendment deals with one specific part of that relationship. My noble friend also rightly emphasised the need for wildlife corridors. We are learning so much more about the fact that you cannot have little isolated pockets of nature recovery and expect it to work. We need that broader viewpoint and a way for nature to travel around the country to provide a wider benefit.

The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, was quite right to stress that, in order for that to happen, the less special and the less beautiful places need to play their part as well. An awful lot of nature recovery activity can go on in places which we do not necessarily see as being particularly beautiful, although they nevertheless have a role to play in nature recovery.

All that leads to the concept of the wild belt. I disagree with the noble Earl, Lord Caithness; it is not a bureaucratic proposal because we already have the structure here—we are just giving an extra tool to the local nature recovery strategies and the people working on that to take a wider look at what is going to make nature work in their area. As I say, it is about finding new pockets or areas which are not necessarily the ones that people might think of, which will help with this nature recovery plan.

Therefore all the powers are already there—they already exist in the Environment Act. All we are doing is providing greater scope for those people to really deliver what we are asking of them. I disagree about whether it is bureaucratic; I think it is actually quite a simple ask. It is quite a popular ask; a lot of the NGOs and campaigners out there recognise the benefit that this can bring, so I hope noble Lords will not disregard it as it is a proposal worth pursuing. In fact, I have had a number of noble Lords from the Government Benches talking positively about this, so it is a concept that has legs, and I think we will return to it.

Having said all that, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Randall, has a speedy recovery and that he will be able to be here for us to plan our next steps on what we will do with this amendment. However, in the meantime I beg leave to withdraw it.