Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

That has reminded me that that was the other question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe—so I thank the noble Baroness for raising it.

As we have said before, we are working on an implementation plan, which we hope to share with noble Lords as soon as we can. It is in my interests as well as noble Lords’ interests that they see it sooner rather than later, but there is no point in sharing something that is not complete. Noble Lords will see that—and it will set out exactly what we are planning to do and where the consultations will fit in with all of it. I hope that when noble Lords see it, it will reassure them.

To go back to the particular question from the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, we see this as a wholesale package. It is right that it is introduced to employers as a package; it will have appropriate timescales in it. We do not want to do things on a piecemeal basis, we want to do them in the round. That is why we are attempting to address this in the way that we are proposing today.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Unfortunately, that is our concern—that we do not know what the detail is, and we are being asked to pass a Bill without all that detail, as I said in my speech.

There was a more technical point that I wanted to raise with the Minister, if she wants to come back to me. I set out how having to cover an extra 9 million employees is going to lead to huge amounts of extra compliance costs. She emphasised the benefits for the workers, but she did not at all address the monumental amount of paperwork. My noble friend Lord Sharpe raised a similar point. As he explained, all managers in all companies are going to have to prepare for this and work out how they treat their employees from day one and what paperwork is required. I am not convinced that there is any understanding of that.

When we had similar consultations on the minimum wage, when I was in business, which the noble Lord, Lord Monks, mentioned, there was a great deal of detailed consultation very early on on how it would work. I said in another debate how I was consulted about whether we could put it on the payslips—and I explained that it would cost us £2 million, so it would cost the whole economy an awful lot just to put the minimum wage on the payslip. That sort of detail is incredibly important, if you are bringing in regulation that affects all employers and potentially benefits all employees.

I urge the Minister to think about these things and not say that it is going into the long grass and that we will get an impact assessment ex post, but think about how employers will actually manage this.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I can assure the noble Baroness that not only have we thought about this but we are working very closely with the business sector to get this right. We understand that some of these things will take time. It takes time to change systems, and a lot of it is about changing computer systems for processing and so on. We are aware of this and, when the noble Baroness sees the implementation plan, it will reassure her that we have allowed space and time for it, as well as proper consultation with those who will be affected.

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

Obviously, we want all sectors to have the right facilities for them. I am not sure whether the noble Baroness is talking about home care or the care home sector. Perhaps we can have a conversation outside; I will attempt to set up a meeting with her, because I do not want to be misconstrued.

Amendments 10 and 31 seek to amend the Bill so that agency workers do not have a right to guaranteed hours. We are determined to ensure that agency workers who seek more certainty of hours and security of income are protected. Some workers choose agency work because they value flexibility, but they can also experience one-sided flexibility in the same way as other workers. Failing to include agency workers in the scope of the Bill could also see employers shift to using more agency workers to avoid the zero-hours measures altogether. As with other eligible workers, agency workers who prefer the flexibility that agency work provides would be free to turn down the guaranteed-hours offer.

After public consultation, the Government brought forward amendments to the Employment Rights Bill so that hirers, agencies and agency workers are clear where responsibilities will rest in relation to the new rights. However, we recognise that some measures may need to apply in a different way to agency workers because of the tripartite relationship between the end hirer, the employment agency and the agency workers. The Government will consult further and continue to work in partnership with employers’ organisations, the recruitment sector and trade unions to develop the detail of regulations in a way that avoids unintended consequences for employment agencies and hirers.

Amendment 32 seeks to remove from the Bill the power to place the duty to make a guaranteed-hours offer on the work-finding agency, or another party involved in the supply or payment of an agency worker instead of the hirer. We included this power in line with the responses to the Government’s consultation on applying zero-hours contract measures to agency workers. Responses from stakeholders were split about whether this new duty should lie between the hirer, the agency or another party in the supply chain. We are clear that, as a default, the hirer should be responsible for making the offers of guaranteed hours because they are best placed to forecast and manage the flow of future work.

However, given the unique and complex nature of agency worker relationships, which vary in different parts of the economy, the power is required to allow the Government flexibility to determine specific cases in which the responsibility to offer guaranteed hours should not sit with the hirer. For instance, this could be the case with vulnerable individual hirers who receive or procure care from agencies—I am not sure whether that is the point to which the noble Baroness referred earlier—where instead the agency might be in a better position to offer guaranteed hours. We are aware of the importance of this power and the impact these regulations could have on agency workers, hirers, agencies and others in the supply chain. For this reason, this power will be subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring both Houses of Parliament get further opportunity to debate its use.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

Can the Minister talk us through the agency question a little bit more? If you need emergency care, you go to an agency and it finds you someone, then you pay a very large sum of money for agency care. Is the Minister suggesting that in future, and considering the ups and downs, the agencies will have to guarantee those who are involved in emergency care these very high salaries, which they will have to pay, even if they do not find clients? Is that how she thinks it will work out in practice? Is it enough to say it is going to go into regulations, when this is so important for the care sector and emergency care?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I was making the point that this has complications because there are some people who are individual hirers. Some people get benefits to employ people directly, so it is not always done through a third party. That is why we need to have clearer rules about this. I am happy to write to noble Lords or explain this in a little bit more detail if that helps.

Collective Investment Schemes (Temporary Recognition) and Central Counterparties (Transitional Provision) (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Neville-Rolfe

Monday 18th November 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank both noble Baronesses for their comments. I very much welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, to her new role—I am sure that she will carry it out extremely well. I am pleased to hear that the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, approves of something we are doing, for a change. Getting approval from her takes some doing, so it is good to hear.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, made some more serious points, which I will have a go at addressing. First, she asked whether risk was being compromised here. We agree that we do not want to deregulate in this area; if anything, the UK Government have committed to maintaining and strengthening our high standards for CCP regulation. Of course, the Bank of England regulates these firms anyway, in accordance with its financial stability objective, so there are checks and balances already in place. We do not believe that risk is being compromised. On equivalence being a unilateral decision for the EU, we have been clear that we are committed to high standards and that we do not believe this SI gives the EU any cause for concern or reason not to extend CCP equivalence further.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about the role of ESMA. Of course, a variety of circumstances could lead to ESMA withdrawing EU recognition from overseas CCPs. These circumstances may not always be relevant to the UK; therefore, UK authorities may not wish to take similar action. This might be the case if, for instance, ESMA withdrew recognition because it had not agreed co-operation arrangements with other relevant national authorities. Whatever the reasons for withdrawing, the Bank is able to remove a firm from the TRR, if it deems that the CCP presents a financial security risk.

The noble Baroness also asked whether insurance companies would fall outside the regulatory perimeter. There is no policy change here. Premium thresholds will be denominated in sterling rather than the euro. The current exchange rate was used, with denominations rounded to the nearest £25; this is just to make it easier and clearer for people using the services. We will keep the operation of these thresholds under review, but this measure was simply to make the process more simplified.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for her welcoming of many of the proposals before us. She asked about impact assessments. They are standard practice; if we do not have an impact assessment, there must be a very good reason why that is the case. The noble Baroness will know from her past experience of the sorts of cases where that might occur. These measures are all covered by the better regulation framework anyway, if the impact is more than £10 million—so we think that, one way or another, they are covered.

The noble Baroness asked about us taking out all references to the EU. All I can say is that that is a work in progress. We would probably like to do it more quickly than we are, but we are working on it. We are looking back at the legislation. The purpose of this particular piece of legislation was to make it clearer to people. I do not think there is a legislative danger in the current wording, if it already exists in other bits of legislation; this was just to avoid confusion. We all want to do that, of course; where we can, we will. If we revisit bits of legislation in any way, that will be an ideal opportunity to correct these references so that they do not cause confusion in future.

I have a feeling that I probably have not answered all the questions asked by the noble Baroness, but that is my best stab at it. I thank both noble Baronesses.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My question about the impact assessment was actually about the de minimis impact assessment. Proper impact assessments have to be done at about £10 million, or whatever the level now is, but I was congratulating the Minister on having done an impact assessment for something that was in effect smaller. I would like to know whether that will be adopted by the Treasury, which I think has an interest in it, and whether it will be adopted more broadly by other departments. Perhaps the Minister could follow up on that, especially on the broader point, given her role on legislation.

As for the point about the plan going forward, it would be good to know whether there is a published source of what is still to come and what amount of time that will take. People will be very glad to know that we are nearly at the end of this process of bringing in our own regime on financial services, so that our excellent sector can feel that the roundabout has stopped and that it can get on with serving Britain. London is still such an important centre for financial services, and I am very keen to support the Government in supporting that.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that question. I can confirm that it is standard practice for the Treasury to produce de minimis impact assessments—I have got a nod from the team behind me, so I say that with some confidence.

The noble Baroness asked about the next steps for repealing assimilated law. The Government are committed to securing the benefits that the repeal and replacement of assimilated law can bring, creating a more agile and responsive regulatory regime. That means progressing work on files such as the European market infrastructure regulation and alternative investment fund managers directive. To be more specific, we will write to the noble Baroness to clarify any further information that we have on this. With that, I hope that noble Lords will approve the regulations.