Post Office Horizon Inquiry: Volume 1

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

Thursday 17th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe of Epsom, has spoken about the Green Paper, but I understood that we were responding only to the Post Office Horizon inquiry’s first report. I apologise if we are meant to cover the Green Paper, but, having had that instruction, I have rewritten my speech accordingly.

We need time to consider the inquiry’s first report. The Statement expresses many of the sentiments that we often hear at the Dispatch Box: admiration for the fearless and diligent work of Sir Wyn Williams, the bravery of the postmasters, and descriptions of what the Post Office, and through it, Governments, have done over a number of years. All that is true, but the problem is that, once again, a judge leading an inquiry has had to call out the lack of delivery and transparency, and, frankly, the re-victimisation of the postmasters and their families. It is just unacceptable. It is close to the old-fashioned saying about cheques: “words and figures do not agree”.

My first question to the Minister is: will the Government review all Sir Wyn’s recommendations, and, as importantly, the evidence of poor delivery in the compensation scheme that he cites, and report back to Parliament in three months? This cannot go on. Some postmasters are dying; until all have realistic offers of compensation, they remain in a financial limbo created by the Post Office and Whitehall.

To give the House an example from the report, page 48 sets out the design of the scheme, which was meant to be “user friendly”. Sir Wyn says that it was so chaotically delivered that, as described in paragraph 4.23, a postmaster’s eligibility criteria were

“determined by employees of the Post Office”

and not by people independent of it. Employees then decided whether the postmaster had suffered a shortfall. Assessors from the Post Office’s solicitors would value that and then write a recommendation for the independent panel. The independent panel’s overriding priority, set by the Post Office, was speed and to assess via its terms of reference, created by the Post Office.

That is just one example from Sir Wyn’s excellent report, but it demonstrates once again why such compensation schemes must be run truly independently from the body that caused the damage. He recommends a truly independent body and not one at arm’s length like the Infected Blood Compensation Authority, because not even that is truly independent. Are the Government going to consider this seriously? From what was said in the Statement, it does not sound like it.

I ask the Minister what it will take to change this. We now have or have had problems with the Post Office Horizon scheme, the Windrush scheme and the IBCA scheme. The government approach to redress and remedy, regardless of the Government, fails time and again; even worse, the problems last longer because there is no real desire to change.

Then there is the issue of Fujitsu. Sir Wyn says that the Post Office and the Government must start discussions with Fujitsu on its contribution to this scheme. Will the Minister provide a timetable for those discussions? There is also another Fujitsu issue: it is now clear from the evidence heard at the public inquiry that it was complicit at the very least, and proactive at worst, in helping the Post Office in its cases in court against postmasters over many years. We know the police are now investigating this, including for perjury and other very serious crimes.

There is a further question. Why does government continue to recontract Fujitsu in other areas? Can the Minister reassure your Lordships’ House that the Government are completely confident that Fujitsu meets the high standard of probity required of large IT contracts?

It is good that it is proposed that the family members of postmasters who suffered because of the scandal will receive redress. But before the Government copy the arrangements for the infected blood scandal, will they please look at the very large problems that the affected victims’ scheme already has? It still has 18 months before it offers its first compensation.

In opposition, Labour repeatedly promised that a duty of candour would be one of its priorities to ensure that discussions start at an early stage as it becomes clear that there are problems somewhere. But the Government have delayed the introduction of the Bill. Can the Minister say when that legislation will be presented to Parliament?

From these Lib Dem Benches, we believe that is not enough. It is essential that whistleblowers have a safe place to air their concerns. We believe that, given the repeated slapping down of anyone expressing concerns—which, by the way, delayed so many truths coming out—an independent office of the whistleblower must be set up. The decades of wrongdoing are a shameful episode in this country’s history. We need mechanisms in place to ensure that this never happens again.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their comments. The inquiry under Sir Wyn Williams has asked some wise and penetrating questions and has scrutinised more than 2 million pages of evidence. I extend my thanks to Sir Wyn and his team for their commitment to confronting the impact of this terrible scandal. I also thank the Horizon advisory board, including the noble Lords, Lord Beamish and Lord Arbuthnot, for its hard work in helping to improve the delivery of redress. We will continue to seek its guidance on how we can continue to improve delivery, particularly in light of the recommendations made in Sir Wyn’s report.

The volume published last Tuesday is only the first volume of Sir Wyn’s final report. It focuses on the human impact of the Horizon IT scandal and the redress delivered to its victims, and we look forward to receiving the subsequent volume from the inquiry when it is published in due course. Sir Wyn’s report lays bare the wide-ranging suffering endured by victims of this scandal—the distress and severe disruption experienced so acutely. Victims lost money, their health and their liberty, and in the most tragic cases they lost their lives. We owe it to them to have proper redress for all crimes that have been committed.

Sir Wyn’s report focuses on the redress scheme set up by this and the previous Government, with 19 recommendations made for the Government to consider. The Government welcome these recommendations, which we have committed to respond to by 10 October. In answer to the noble Baroness, we will of course review all the recommendations and the evidence behind them in detail. I hope to be back here at the Dispatch Box in October to update Parliament on the progress we are making.

We have already announced that we will accept three of Sir Wyn’s recommendations, which include extending redress to the most severely affected family members and introducing a best offer approach in the GLO scheme. The Government are keen to ensure that we get redress to those affected as soon as possible. We recognise that delays have been unacceptable and that some sub-postmasters have found the schemes adversarial and difficult to navigate. Over the past year, we have made improvements that have significantly sped up the process of claims. In the last 12 months, this Government have more than quadrupled the total amount of redress paid, which now stands at nearly £1.1 billion. But we recognise that there is more to do.

Horizon, which sparked this whole scandal, should have gone long ago, but the task of replacing it is hugely complex and cannot be done overnight. In the meantime, it remains critical to the delivery of the essential Post Office services on which people depend. We are determined to end the use of Horizon and so draw a line under Fujitsu’s involvement with the Post Office. As part of over £500 million of investment during this Parliament, we have committed up to £136 million this financial year to invest in new technology and replace Horizon.

I turn to some of the questions. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, asked about the Green Paper. Twelve months ago we inherited a Post Office in crisis, with declining financial sustainability, unstable leadership, a network struggling to maintain services and a reputation shattered by the Horizon scandal and its appalling treatment of sub-postmasters, as Sir Wyn Williams’s report has underlined. The Green Paper published this week begins a national dialogue on the future of the Post Office so that we can create a modern, resilient and financially sustainable organisation.

Although we recognise the Post Office’s history, this Green Paper is about looking forwards, not backwards. We also need to recognise the serious cultural issues of the past and ensure that, going forwards, the Post Office has a positive postmaster-focused culture and is run in an accountable and transparent way. We also of course recognise the points raised by the noble Lord about the important role that post offices can play in rural areas and as banking hubs, particularly in disadvantaged areas.

The noble Lord asked about the progress and possible changes of governance. No decision on changes to governance will be made by the Government until the inquiry’s final report, to allow the Government to consider the inquiry’s recommendations on governance issues together with the Green Paper responses.

The noble Baroness asked about Fujitsu and the technology. The Post Office is committed to moving away from Fujitsu and the Horizon system. Post Office has a plan to introduce a new IT system in stages for postmasters and strategic partners. Post Office’s future technology portfolio is designed to transform technology and data across the Post Office while supporting the transition of Horizon out of Fujitsu. As I said, the Government have confirmed that they will provide up to £136 million for this project in the financial year. The noble Baroness wanted to see some speed in this. This is a complex programme of work that cannot be completed overnight, given the range of transactions that the IT system needs to support. Nevertheless, we will move at pace to try to bring those changes about.

The noble Baroness also asked about Fujitsu’s continued involvement. The first thing to say is that Fujitsu has acknowledged its moral obligation to contribute to the cost of the scandal, and the Government welcome this. The extent of Fujitsu’s culpability for the scandal will not be clear until all parts of Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry report are published. In the meantime, Fujitsu has begun talks with the Department for Business and Trade on the company’s contribution to the cost of the scandal. That includes whether any interim payments should be made.

The noble Baroness asked about the progress on redress. We share the postmasters’ frustration that redress has been too slow. However, we have massively increased the pace. We have paid out nearly £1.1 billion—four times what had been paid when we took office. We have already made some other positive interventions, including introducing the £75,000 fixed offer for the HSS claimants; launching the HCRS and merging Post Office’s redress for convicted claimants into it; launching the HSS appeals scheme; and promising redress for Capture victims. We will continue to look at Sir Wyn Williams’s recommendations to see what more we can do.

It remains the mission of this Government to bring the victims of the Horizon scandal the justice they wholly deserve and to make sure that a miscarriage of justice does not happen again. But as well as fixing the past, we must build on the future. As I say, the Green Paper published earlier this week begins a national dialogue on the future of the Post Office. Our priority now is building a modern and financially sustainable Post Office that is run in an accountable and postmaster-focused way, and I hope noble Lords will support those objectives.

Online Harms: Young People

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 21st May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government welcome the Women and Equalities Committee report on tackling non-consensual intimate image abuse, and the issues it raises are an absolute priority for us. That is why we have taken action by strengthening the Online Safety Act and introducing further offences as part of the Crime and Policing Bill and the Data (Use and Access) Bill—and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness for all the work she has done in helping to us to strengthen that legislation. We will not hesitate to go further to protect women and girls online. Technology-facilitated abuse will be a key component of the upcoming cross-government violence against women and girls strategy.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, there has been much discussion about online access for children and young people at schools, and the advice on keeping phones out of schools is much welcomed. However, surely we need to ensure that parents and carers have all the information and skills that they need to navigate and guide their children. Are this Government planning a comprehensive campaign to alert parents to online harms and to ensure that they have the right digital skills to be able to access information and support for their children?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that important point. Media literacy in all its forms is important for parents, teachers and young people, to make sure that we create a respectful online environment. Ofcom has specific media literacy duties that it will carry out. Its media literacy strategy prioritises research and initiatives to address online misogyny, including research to understand how such harmful behaviour occurs. As set out in the strategy, Ofcom expects its work on online misogyny to directly target teenage boys and young men. However, the noble Baroness is right that it goes further than that: we have to educate parents as well, to look at what their children are accessing. There is a huge job of work to be done on education in the wider sphere. Obviously, schools are playing their part in that now, as the noble Baroness acknowledged, but we have far more to do on this, and all aspects of government are addressing these issues.

Steel Industry

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

2nd reading
Saturday 12th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thought I had answered that point. The Bill, as it stands here, is to deal with one emergency. As we know, it is a volatile sector and we might need to use those powers at other times. We will use them judiciously and with care, and, as I keep saying, we will continue to update the House as to the use of those powers. We do not feel that a sunset clause is necessary or desirable in this Bill. To clarify, my general comment to the noble Lord was that we would continue to engage with the Lords committees to make sure that they are fully updated with progress going forward.

In concluding this debate, I convey my thanks to all noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions and for helping us to pass this legislation so that we can retain steel-making capacity in the UK—for British workers’ security, for British industry’s future and for the future of British Steel workers and their families. That is our priority and that is how we intend to go forward.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

The Minister did not respond to my specific question about ensuring that the amount of any compensation paid under the terms of the Bill would be absolutely clear and stated to the public and to Parliament.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Baroness makes a reasonable point. I am sure that we can accommodate that and make sure that that information is available.

Post Office: Capture System

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

Thursday 12th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord raises important issues of law. He will know that the Law Commission is already looking at the law relating to criminal appeals and is due to report next year. That review includes consideration of the CCRC’s role and the statutory tests it applies. The Government will carefully consider any recommendations.

To return briefly to the Capture system, the Court of Appeal is yet to overturn any convictions relating to the use of Capture. The Criminal Cases Review Commission is already considering five potential cases and it is right and proper, in these circumstances, that we let the CCRC and the SCCRC finish conducting those reviews.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, it is appalling that the key information for the Kroll report forensic investigation into Capture, which pre-dates Horizon, was provided only the day before the report was submitted to government; it did not change the report. Kroll has found that there is a “reasonable likelihood” that Capture had caused these accounting shortfalls.

Back in May, when we were discussing the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill, I asked questions about Capture on three separate occasions. I was told that it was completely different and there was absolutely no connection. It now appears there is a connection. Regardless of the route to justice, will the Government undertake to move as speedily as they can, not just to overturn these cases but to provide redress to these postmasters and staff?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. There is a difference between Horizon and the Capture system. The Capture system was not networked to a central system like Horizon was, which meant the data in Capture could not be accessed or manipulated from elsewhere. However, notwithstanding that, we are looking at whether there have been miscarriages of justice. I am sorry to say this, but perhaps the noble Baroness should wait for the report we will produce next week. I feel frustrated saying this today, but I know noble Lords will understand how the machinery of government works. I hope to come back with clearer news next week.

Social Media: Catfishing

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 30th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am of course happy to meet the gentleman the noble Baroness mentioned. We are open to all suggestions about how we can improve this legislation. None of this is 100% secure—we absolutely know that—and we know that, as technology is moving forward, we need to move forward too. It seems that the criminals are always one step ahead of us, so we need to catch up and make sure that we take all the appropriate action we can with the new technology that is being used. The noble Baroness also made an important point about education. Ofcom already has an important media literacy strategy that it is rolling out, and that includes education in schools and with young people. But we all have a responsibility—every parent has a responsibility to say to their child, “What you see on your social media platform may not be what you think you’re seeing”. We need to make sure that they are made aware of those dangers.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, Naomi Long, the Justice Minister in Northern Ireland, has said that Westminster’s legislation on online crimes, including catfishing, is not strong enough, particularly on unverified social media accounts. Worse, 87% of those who report online crime to the police get an immediate response of “no further action”. What will the Government do to ensure that police forces and the CPS have the right information to make sure that that appalling figure is reduced?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

We are working closely with the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice on the implementation of the existing legislation because, as I say, a number of pieces of legislation are already on the statute book. Some capture fraud offences —I note the Fraud Act—and others capture online frauds, including romance frauds on dating apps and so on, which, sadly, are all too widespread. Those actions are being taken. We are talking about this to the Home Office, which is also on a learning curve in relation to how it can tackle these issues more robustly. We are carrying on our dialogue with it.

Post Office Horizon: Redress

Debate between Baroness Jones of Whitchurch and Baroness Brinton

Tuesday 10th September 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Johnson, about the Government’s Statement being very welcome and the attempt to try to unscramble some of the complexities of the scheme, but from these Benches too we are concerned about the low level of conclusion of cases, despite the process. I echo his questions about how this is being managed. Mindful that there are other inquiry redress processes that have hit problems and have had to repeatedly be redesigned, my first question to the Minister is to ask whether she is absolutely convinced that she has addressed all of them. I shall come on to a couple of specific points.

Chris Head, a former sub-postmaster who lost everything when he was wrongly accused of theft, has spoken up since the publication of the statements with some concerns, saying:

“The remit of the appeal process cannot be restricted to only those that produce new evidence. Many people have been materially disadvantaged by not having access to legal advice and interim payments that were only introduced in November 2022. This appeals mechanism must be available to everyone that has settled claims since the scheme launched in 2020 to ensure they are properly compensated back to a position they would have been in had the scandal not happened”.


Members of your Lordships’ House, including the Minister, I think, have repeatedly raised concerns about the difference between these various schemes for different sub-postmasters and staff. While it is good that the Government want to have an independent appeals process for the HSS, I remind her that the complex redress schemes arising out of other tragic scandals have had to be adapted. It took the work done on the Victims and Prisoners Act to create the infected blood compensation scheme earlier this year—with an enormous amount of energy—to untangle all the different parts of that redress scheme. Does the Minister recognise that Mr Head and others have valid concerns about inconsistencies between the schemes, and that trying to sort all this out now, at pace, as was done with the infected blood scheme, must be a priority?

I want to raise two other issues briefly. First, on the predecessor package to Horizon, known as Capture, I raised the issue of the postmasters and staff who lost their jobs because of Capture, some of whom were also prosecuted but many of whom were sacked. The Independent newspaper and ITN have given voice to these victims. When will the Government’s own investigation into Capture be published and when will they update your Lordships’ House on its findings? Should redress be due, will it be incorporated into the existing postmasters’ scheme, or will there have to be a brand-new one?

Finally, in July, my noble friend Lord Fox raised again the issue of those not included in the overturning of convictions because they had appealed their cases and lost in the Appeal Court. Both he and I had helpful discussions with the previous Minister. The concern was expressed that the judiciary, in particular, had felt it was wrong for this group of victims to have their cases overturned under the legislation in the summer, because there was some merit to other parts of the cases brought against them. Yet, that question was not asked of any other case whatever, only those that went to appeal. Are the Government prepared to reconsider that? What now exists in the redress scheme is a small group of people who have to have an exceptionally high bar of going to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, hoping that it will refer their cases back to the Court of Appeal. This seems unfair and particularly long term, which means these victims will not get resolution for a long time to come.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Science, Innovation and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lords for raising these points on what is clearly a very important issue. I have to say that it upsets me greatly to hear of the harrowing experiences postmasters faced over so many years. I understand and have the utmost respect for their wish for full, fair, speedy redress, for answers from the inquiry about what went wrong and for people to be properly held to account for what has happened. This scandal represents one of the biggest miscarriages of justice of our time, and it is crucial that we get redress for those affected as quickly as possible. This is what we are focusing on as a Government—fair and timely redress for postmasters—and we will continue to work with and support the Post Office Horizon inquiry as it carries out its vital work in establishing the facts about what went wrong in this scandal.

Before I turn to the specific questions raised, I pay tribute to the tireless campaigning of the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, to all the many postmasters who have championed this cause and to Sir Alan Bates and Lady Suzanne, whom I congratulate on their recent wedding. I also thank members of the advisory board, including the noble Lords, Lord Beamish and Lord Arbuthnot, who are members of the Horizon advisory board. I thank them for their advocacy for postmasters affected by the scandal over many years and for their hard work in helping the Government improve the delivery of redress. We shall continue to listen to their advice.

Turning to the subject in hand and the questions the noble Lord and the noble Baroness asked, we will look to establish the new Horizon shortfall scheme appeal process announced yesterday as quickly as possible. Postmasters’ stories are harrowing, but their resilience and steadfastness in seeking justice are inspiring. The Government’s priority is ensuring that the victims of the scandal receive the redress they deserve. We want to help bring some closure to postmasters as soon as we can. I cannot give an exact timeline today, but it is likely that it will be launched in the new year. We will keep postmasters updated on its development.

I can reassure noble Lords that legal advice will be available from the outset for those who enter the appeals process. We want the appeals process to be available to all those who are not satisfied that they received the correct amount of compensation. As in the case of the broader design of the process, we will engage with postmasters and the advisory board on the detailed approach before agreeing and setting out in due course details on eligibility criteria.

The appeals process is intended to support, in particular, those who have settled their claim but feel that they were unable to set it out in full in their initial application. There are a variety of reasons why postmasters may have been unable to do so, and these will be considered when designing the process and its eligibility criteria. It will also be open to more recent applicants who have not yet settled and are unhappy with the offer they have received from the Post Office. However, on the specific question from the noble Lord, those who have accepted £75,000 are not eligible for an appeal. They were told this at the outset, when they accepted the payment.

The Government are committed to ensuring that we support postmasters affected by the Horizon scandal to get the redress they deserve. We plan to continue to work in a cross-party way on this important national priority, which of course was highlighted so well by the ITV drama “Mr Bates vs. The Post Office” earlier this year, and in last night’s follow-up documentary.

The noble Baroness asked about the investigation into the Capture software. We expect to receive this report shortly, and the conclusion of this exercise will support the Government in determining whether postmasters faced detriment due to the Capture system and what steps should be taken based on the conclusions of the investigation.

The noble Lord asked how many payments have been made for the Horizon convictions redress scheme. As of 30 August, we have made six interim payments totalling £1.2 million. As of 6 September, 178 letters have been issued by the MoJ. On the issue of the MoJ letters, as the Secretary of the State said yesterday, the state of the records has, sadly, delayed the process. This is a real frustration, but I hope that noble Lords will understand that, after everything people have been through, we should not take the risk of sending out a letter incorrectly. The Government are grateful for the support of the HSS appeals mechanism.

To all those who think that this is not moving fast enough, I can reassure them that we are moving at speed on this issue. There are a huge number of technical and legal issues that we are still ironing out, but we understand the need to move and resolve these issues at speed.

In response to the noble Lord’s point about cultural issues, I agree they are important, and I hope they will come out in the final phase of Sir Wyn Williams’s inquiry. Hopefully, we can follow it up and act on it.