Post Office: Capture System

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch Excerpts

Thursday 12th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what plans they have to overturn the convictions of sub-postmasters or former Post Office employees convicted in relation to the Capture system.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the important work that the noble Lord has done in campaigning for justice for the postmasters—and indeed his ongoing work on that issue.

We were concerned to learn about the issues outlined in the Kroll report, which related to the Capture system. However, the report did not comment on whether the convictions were unsafe. As the noble Lord will know, the Government are committed to responding to the report, and that response will be published next week. In the meantime, convictions in relation to the Capture software are being reviewed by the Criminal Cases Review Commissions. The UK Government and the Post Office are assisting them with their requests for information, and I encourage all those who believe they have been wrongly convicted to contact the CCRC.

[Lord Arbuthnot of Edrom (Con)]

I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. It is now clear from the Kroll report that the Minister referred to that the Post Office’s behaviour in relation to the Capture system was just as bad as its behaviour in relation to Horizon. The Horizon Compensation Advisory Board—I declare an interest as a member of it—wrote to the Lord Chancellor in November saying that there was no difference between the Horizon victims and the Capture victims on the question of whether they should have their convictions overturned.

Might the Government consider an alternative approach, which might not offend the understandable concerns of those who do not like the idea of Parliament overturning judicial decisions? Earlier this year the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, who I see in his place, proposed such an alternative arrangement, which involved the judges in an appropriate way. Perhaps we can take the opportunity of reducing the evidential requirements to take a case to the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for that. The proposal for the Horizon cases from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Burnett, related to the Lord Chancellor taking a power to refer cases to the Court of Appeal, and putting in place a statutory presumption that any convictions are unsafe unless there is evidence to the contrary. As noble Lords will know, this would represent a significant departure from existing appeals processes, and any further exploration of such an approach would need careful consideration, not just for this case but potentially for others. That is not to say we are dismissing it; it would be under review. I emphasise that, unlike Horizon, we do not yet have evidence that the flaws in the Capture system resulted in wrongful convictions. In fact, the Kroll report is clear on this point, stating:

“Kroll does not provide comment on whether any convictions arising from sub-postmasters using Capture could be considered unsafe”.


Part of the problem with the Kroll report is that because it related to the 1990s it had some difficulty in getting the documentation to assess whether that was the case.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, can I ask Ministers to be absolutely sure that there is no cover-up, as happened so scandalously with Horizon? Surely the plight of the sub-postmasters under Capture, as the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, said, is exactly the same as under Horizon, except that the convicted Capture sub-postmasters were badly treated more than 20 years ago and have suffered ever since without any redress. All that time, the accounting officer for the Post Office was a Civil Service Permanent Secretary and the Government had their own appointee on the Post Office board. Will Ministers ensure that these sub-postmasters get the justice denied to them for so long and are not forced to go to court to do so?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I hope my noble friend will bear with us, because we are coming back with a response on the Capture system next week, so I am sorry I am not able to answer on the detail of that. On the current ownership and governance arrangements, we are committed to a Green Paper looking at those relationships between the Post Office and the Government. It will be published in the early part of next year and will address issues about the involvement and representation on the board that my noble friend has raised.

[Lord Burnett of Maldon (CB)]

My Lords, as my name has been mentioned on two occasions already, it is perhaps apt that I should say something. I yield to no one in my admiration for the work that the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, has done in this field. He was good enough to pay an undeserved tribute to some of the work I did in the background as well. I fear, on this occasion, that in praying in aid the scheme I proposed for the Horizon problem, to deal with a constitutional solipsism, we are not yet there with Capture.

Does the Minister agree that, in our constitutional arrangements, the separation of powers and rule of law suggest that courts should deal with wrongful convictions, and overturn them if they are established as such? Does she also agree that in this instance it is much better to wait for the Criminal Cases Review Commission to refer some cases to the Court of Appeal, which will then deal with them by looking at all the facts, evidence and arguments and, if there are problems, quash the convictions?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble and learned Lord raises important issues of law. He will know that the Law Commission is already looking at the law relating to criminal appeals and is due to report next year. That review includes consideration of the CCRC’s role and the statutory tests it applies. The Government will carefully consider any recommendations.

To return briefly to the Capture system, the Court of Appeal is yet to overturn any convictions relating to the use of Capture. The Criminal Cases Review Commission is already considering five potential cases and it is right and proper, in these circumstances, that we let the CCRC and the SCCRC finish conducting those reviews.

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, it is appalling that the key information for the Kroll report forensic investigation into Capture, which pre-dates Horizon, was provided only the day before the report was submitted to government; it did not change the report. Kroll has found that there is a “reasonable likelihood” that Capture had caused these accounting shortfalls.

Back in May, when we were discussing the Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill, I asked questions about Capture on three separate occasions. I was told that it was completely different and there was absolutely no connection. It now appears there is a connection. Regardless of the route to justice, will the Government undertake to move as speedily as they can, not just to overturn these cases but to provide redress to these postmasters and staff?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that. There is a difference between Horizon and the Capture system. The Capture system was not networked to a central system like Horizon was, which meant the data in Capture could not be accessed or manipulated from elsewhere. However, notwithstanding that, we are looking at whether there have been miscarriages of justice. I am sorry to say this, but perhaps the noble Baroness should wait for the report we will produce next week. I feel frustrated saying this today, but I know noble Lords will understand how the machinery of government works. I hope to come back with clearer news next week.

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

More broadly, can the Minister tell us what safeguards are being put in place to ensure that no authority, public or private, can act with unchecked power similar to that exercised by the Post Office during the Horizon case?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right to raise this; it is an issue that relates not just to the Post Office and Horizon. We are very aware of that and are looking at whether other actions should be taken on a more general basis. It is at the top of our list of concerns, and I hope we will be able to come back with more information on that.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, does the Minister not accept that in the case of Capture, as Horizon, justice delayed is justice denied? Dewi Lewis, the sub-postmaster in Penrhyndeudraeth, is the son of my late agent, Maldwyn Lewis. He had to sell his house to bail out his son, hoping to avoid further prosecution. Is it not necessary to make maximum speed with these cases to avoid such circumstances?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: speed is of the essence. No postmaster who suffered from either of these schemes should have to wait longer than is absolutely necessary. We are doing everything we can to speed up the payments for the Horizon scheme, and we are working very quickly on the Capture scheme to see whether there are major issues we need to take on immediately. We moved quickly to conclude and publish the results of the independent investigation into Capture. As I say, we are committed to publishing a response this month, which will now be next week. We are moving quickly on this. The noble Lord is absolutely right, and none of us wants to see anyone waiting longer than they should to get justice in what are some terrible cases.