Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her letter, but I rather feel that it posed as many questions as it has answered. Much of what I was going to be talking about with this group of amendments has been said very elegantly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge. However, I am supporting Amendments 1, 2, 12, 13, 45, 46 and 47. As has just been said, your Lordships’ House has many committees. The refrain of the Second Reading was the expression “breath-taking scope”. The 47th report of the Delegated Powers Committee continues in the same vein:

“Under the powers in clause 2(1)(a) and (b) of the Bill, the Secretary of State could fund the entire cost of mental health provision in, say, the state of Arizona as well as the cost of all hip replacements in, say, Australia. If this might appear fanciful, we assess powers by how they are capable of being used, not by how governments say that they propose to use them. The fact that the powers could be used in these ways suggests that they are too widely drawn”.


When I read the Bill, parts of it read very much like a trade Bill. We believe that reciprocal arrangements with other than EU states are better dealt with one-to-one, much like those with Australia and New Zealand, for example. I am not convinced that arrangements with other than EU states will all fit in the same pattern. If the Minister wishes to bring a subsequent Bill for worldwide minus EU, we would be happy to look at it. Will she confirm that the Bill before us has been drawn up to fit in with future trade agreements across the world? Would any further secondary legislation be required? What parliamentary scrutiny would there be and are there any red lines?

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the Committee for not having been able to speak at Second Reading. Secondly, I welcome the Minister to her new post and wish her well with it, although I am sorry, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, that she has been given a hospital pass on this one. I shall speak briefly in support of Amendment 1 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I am sorry to hear that the clause stand part may not be pushed to a vote, but perhaps the way that the debate goes may necessitate that.

My interest goes back before the Minister came into the House. I asked a series of questions about the proposed trade agreement between the UK and the USA. I have been particularly concerned, as have many in the health industry, that this agreement will open up an opportunity for the USA to come in very strongly indeed. The health industry in America is a very big part of the economy, and one area in which it has not been able to make great movement is within the NHS. Some of us have been concerned that the trade agreement would open that up, and we have been seeking to have it taken off the agenda. I have tabled Questions asking for it not to be on the agenda, and the Government have so far not been prepared to give any such assurance. I have contemplated moving an amendment to this Bill to ensure that, while the Minister is saying that this has nothing to do with that, she could accept such an amendment and set my mind at rest very quickly.

I read very carefully what she said in response to similar criticisms of the Bill at Second Reading:

“The Government are completely committed to the guiding principles of the NHS—that it is universal and free at the point of need. Our position is definitive: the NHS is not and never will be for sale”.—[Official Report, 5/2/19; col. 1488.]


She was not saying anything there with which I would disagree, but one worries about trade agreements whereby people can effectively take over and, while not owning it, can run parts of a major utility such as the NHS. That is why some of us have been seeking an agreement that it would not be on the agenda at all and the NHS would be left as it is, free of any trade agreement, particularly with the United States. I would be grateful, therefore, if the Minister could reassure me that in no way would a trade agreement with the USA have the NHS as part of it. If not, I may have to go away and see whether I can bring back an amendment on this issue.

Alcohol Consumption

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

I am not quite sure. I can tell noble Lords about licensing. We are actively working with Public Health England on the practicalities of how health-related objectives for the licensing of premises selling alcohol would work at a local level.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, while we welcome the reduction in the amount of alcohol being sold in certain areas, is it not true that growth is taking place in other areas? In particular, the drinks industry is trying to get its brands into the heads of young people. Is the Minister content to see supermarkets now selling alcoholic lemonade that is stronger than many beers? Is she content to see them selling ginger beer and other soft drinks with more alcohol than is contained in many beers? Should we not be doing something about that?

NHS: Finances and Services

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jolly]

My noble friend makes a very interesting point. Perhaps they should look at some of the examples that are actually used in the NHS in England.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

Is it not true that in Scotland and in Wales, there are more chronic, long-term sick patients than there are in the UK generally? Will the Minister say why, each time a Minister replies to questions on the failing performance, they pray in aid the number of additional patients who are now going into the NHS? Is this coming as a great surprise? Is it a surprise that people are getting older? What is the projection for the next five years about the numbers that we have to deal with? Surely this should be planned for.

[Baroness Jolly]

Indeed it should be planned for. There are now a million more people over 65 than there were at the beginning of this Parliament, but at the beginning of this Parliament there were no plans to cope with that onward growth.

Health: Alcohol Minimum Pricing

Debate between Baroness Jolly and Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe

Tuesday 1st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords—

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords—

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, now that the Minister and the Government have accepted that raising the price of alcohol is one of the ways in which we can minimise harm to those who are abusing alcohol, why have the Government’s recent proposals been so minimal? The cost of a can of lager will be increased, or minimised, to 38p under the new arrangements. This is hardly going to make any change whatsoever. We have to wait for the White Paper in the summer, but in the mean time why could a more positive approach to raising the cost of alcohol not have been taken and more fundamental changes made to the ever increasing easy access to alcohol, which is another problem that needs addressing?