Child Support Fees Regulations 2014

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB)]

My Lords, your Lordships may remember that I was one of those who supported the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, in the very important amendment that he has just referred to. I, too, remain concerned that despite the concessions made by the Government in reducing the application fee for a child maintenance calculation to £20 and reducing the parent with care collection charge by 4% on every payment—on which I congratulate them—there is a real danger that the effect of the new charging regime will be that fewer children end up with fair and reliable child maintenance.

In this respect, I share the conclusion of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, which found that,

“although the transfer scheme may make savings it may imperfectly achieve the overarching objective of providing financial support for children”.

I want to press the Minister for assurances that the Government will closely monitor what happens to maintenance for children whose CSA cases are closed during the next three years. After all, the department has details of the parents and children so can track what happens to them, case by case, in terms of future maintenance arrangements—or the lack of them.

It will not be enough for the Government to congratulate themselves if fewer parents apply to use the statutory maintenance service, unless they know for certain that the parents concerned have made private arrangements for maintenance that result in regular payments of realistic amounts for the children concerned. Similarly, it will not be enough to be satisfied that fewer parents are asking to use the collection service and have opted for a direct payment arrangement—again, unless they know for certain that those direct payment arrangements are resulting in regular payment of the liabilities that have been calculated by the Child Maintenance Service.

In the past, the department has said it can assume that every direct payment arrangement is paid in full and on time because, if not, parents with care would ask to use the collection service. Even if this assumption were true now, it will certainly not be true in the future, given that the collection charges are expressly intended to deter parents from asking to use the collection service, regardless of the circumstances. I therefore seek full assurances from the Minister that the department will track in detail how children fare as their CSA cases are closed down and charges are brought in.

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow my two colleagues in this important debate. My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay led the House in earlier stages of the Bill in a commanding and profoundly serious way. His weight being added to this question is something to which I hope that the Minister and department will pay careful attention; that is also true of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe.

I underscore what my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay emphasised at earlier stages of this discussion: the fee money that we are talking about is actually the child’s. My noble and learned friend is right to point to the clause in the memorandum that says that this is controversial; that is why it is controversial. This money which is being taken out of the system should be going to the assistance of, mainly but not exclusively, poorly paid families who are doing their best to struggle to bring up children in very difficult circumstances. That controversy is not going to go away. I pay tribute to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, for the work that they have done in the past.

I also acknowledge that there have been concessions, and I do not think that my noble friend the Minister needs an alibi. He has other fish to fry; this is none of his business. It is a very bad change. I actually take a more fundamental view. I have been of the opinion since 1991, when I started on all of this, that charging was wrong in principle. I am long enough in the tooth to remember the period during 1993 and 1995 when we tried charging. I have said this before: it was a disaster. Why? Because nobody collected any money. They were not collecting fees or enforcing debts, so people were saying, “Why are we paying these fees when we are not getting any money?”. The scheme was quickly abandoned. We need to learn lessons about that. I do not believe that even the new, all-singing, all-dancing Child Maintenance Service—while the improvements are welcome—can offer guarantees that the enforcement will be effective.

Changing the balance of my concern, because I have always been really worried about the parents with care more than anything else, some of the charges which are going to be levelled at the non-resident parents are eye-wateringly high. There are a lot of non-resident parents out there who do not understand the difference that will be made with the combination of a recalculation and a collection fee. I wait with bated breath to see where this new co-operation which is going to break out all over the place is going to start. It is fantasy. A long time ago I was a divorce lawyer, and I know what people can do to one another when they separate. It is sometimes quite unbelievable. I am sure that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay, with his previous distinguished legal career and all his work with children’s charities, would reinforce that. I object to fees in principle. I do not think that they will work. I hope that I am wrong, but that has always been my position and it is worth restating.

Secondly, this system that we have used for charging fees is flawed. Again, I agree with everything that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay has said, but I want to add a point which has been drawn to my attention by Gingerbread, which is right in saying that if the Child Maintenance Service has the weight of decision in testing the question of “unlikely to pay or not”—to allow the parent with care to join or stay in the service—that is a contestable decision. It is an important decision for both parents. It is an administrative decision which is taken out of both their hands. I do not know what assurances have been given, or whether there is anything that I have missed in the regulations which makes it a requirement to explain in detail why that decision has been taken, but it seems to me contrary to natural justice. In any other area of public life where such an administrative decision is made an inbuilt independent appeal is automatically attached to it. That is entirely absent from this new system. I appeal to my noble friend to go away and look at the provisions in the Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008, Section 6(5), where, I think, the Secretary of State is given discretion about introducing an appeal. As part of the undertaking that I hope my noble friend will give to the Committee to continue to monitor all this carefully there should be the possibility of the Secretary of State making that discretionary decision, so that we can have an appeal available, if it becomes obvious—as I believe it will—that it is necessary.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Monday 25th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

Indeed. I am looking at the Treasury Autumn Statement 2012, Table 2.1, which has a category headed, “Exchequer savings resulting from 1% uprating of benefits and tax credits”. This is over the three years, not just the two years in the Bill. The table also has a category headed, “Universal Credit: finalise disregards and increase by 1% for two years from 2014-15”. The figure given suggests that the saving for 2015-16 will be £640 million. However, my honourable friend Steve Webb, in a Written Answer to Stephen Timms on 13 February, identified universal credit additional savings as £20 million in 2014-15, £100 million in 2015-16 and £150 million in 2016-17. I am not sure how these figures relate to one another. I may be misreading the statistics and the tables may be drawn up using different bases, but between now and Report I would like to understand how these figures are worked out.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said, the assumptions about how many people will be translated on to universal credit are best guesses, to put it mildly. I think the roll-out programme will take much longer, for the reasons that I explained earlier, and the story in the Financial Times compounds my anxieties in this regard. I think the figures that the right reverend Prelate gave of 10% of claimants being on universal credit by 2014-15 and 30% by 2015-16 are ambitious, to put it mildly, so can we have some greater clarity?

This is an important Bill. I understand the significance of the situation in which the Government find themselves. If I did not believe that before this weekend, all the financial circumstances of the past few days have confirmed the difficulty of the situation. However, before Report, we must try to get a better fix, in particular on the savings related to the universal credit inclusion in the Bill, because it is unclear to me. It is important and, from where I am sitting at the moment, I do not think that the savings are worth the candle. I would be much happier leaving universal credit out of the Bill. Let it be the future and let us all work on it, try to protect it and build on it in the best way we can. The Bill is a retrograde step as it affects universal credit, and I support these amendments for that reason.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I want to say a very brief word about two groups—children and families. Before I do so, I congratulate the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester on his excellent briefing on these very important areas. I agree with a great deal of what the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, said.

We know that the Government are not on target to meet the Child Poverty Act commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020. The right reverend Prelate referred to that. We are told by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that there can be almost no chance of eradicating child poverty, as defined in the Child Poverty Act, by 2020. It predicted that there would be an additional 500,000 children living in absolute poverty by 2015. However, that leaves out a further 200,000 children who will be pushed into relative income poverty. How on earth will this Bill help the Government to meet their commitments under the Child Poverty Act?

I am even more concerned about the disproportionate impact that all this is having on women. The Bill disproportionately affects women, including through the cap on child benefit payments and statutory maternity pay. Furthermore, those in low-paid work, who are more likely to be women, will lose the most. It is estimated that 300,000 nurses and midwives, 150,000 primary and nursery school teachers and 1.14 million admin workers and secretaries will be affected by the cap. Some 98% of child benefit payments are paid to women. Child benefit has already been frozen for three years, meaning that over five years there will be a total of a 2% increase; for the same period, CPI will have risen by 16%. Of different family types, lone parents, who are mostly women, as we know, will lose the most: £261 a year by 2015.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Howe of Idlicote and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope]

My Lords, I should like to make a contribution to the debate as someone who was happy to co-sponsor the amendment of my longstanding and noble friend Lady Lister.

This has happened partly because the department thought that the Social Fund was beginning to become too difficult to handle. I know that the current explanation is that it is all part of the localism agenda, but I do not believe that. The criticisms that have been well set out by my noble friend Lady Lister are all valid. They are concerns that I share. More than anything else, I am beginning to hear from my spies, who are everywhere, that local authorities are coming to arrangements—if I were them I would do the same—for benefits in kind with white goods providers and food banks, though not quite soup kitchens yet. The point that I am making is that there is no substitute in certain circumstances, when families are in crisis and people are at risk of prejudice to their health, to the availability of access to liquid cash. There is no substitute to get them out of the kind of classic crises, whether domestic violence or other things. They need hot money and they need it right now to get them into a place where they can become safer. No amount of ingenuity, local creativity, co-operation or anything else is a substitute for that. We are not safe in this House to devolve this money—I shall come on to how it will be devolved in a moment—without recognising the value to family households in crises of having access to cash.

There is a very important point for Parliament about the oversight of this money. As colleagues know, we have a sophisticated system. There is a Social Fund commissioner and a variety of excellent public servants have served in that office with distinction. They have overseen the independent review service and have provided extremely useful current advice, information and data that have helped to stay on top of some of the policy issues. All of that is being thrown to the winds. I deeply regret that and said so at some length in Committee. The work that the Social Fund commissioners did in the past will be missed. I can see no way that Parliament will be able to stay as closely in touch with developments in this important policy area under the regime proposed in the clause.

I have no confidence at all that we can be secure in the knowledge of what will happen in Scotland and Wales. The Government may be able to control to some extent the conditions and provisions under which local authorities in England and perhaps Wales—although I am not sure about Wales—will comply with these regulations. However, certainly in Scotland the money will be given to the Scottish Government, or will pass through the Scottish Government, and noble Lords may have noticed that arguments have started to mature north of the border that perhaps will knock relations between the Westminster and Scottish Governments temporarily out of kilter. My serious point is that there will be different legalities relating to the controls and dispositions that will be made by local authorities in England and north of the border. I have no way of knowing how the Government will handle that.

No additional cost is involved in the amendment. That is an important consideration, given our earlier debates. We had some good discussions on this in Committee and I, like the noble Baroness, thought we had got some constructive and seriously positive responses from the Minister. I simply want to know how Clause 69 in all its glory and with its 10 subsections will be translated into practice and implemented.

I assume that there will be further opportunities at the regulation-laying stage—assuming that we do not agree any of the amendments that I think are necessary to improve the Bill in this important area—when the powers and the money are transferred. The money is important because another unique aspect of the Social Fund is that it has loans that are repaid, and the repaid loans refurbish the resources available for further use by other clients at a later stage. I am not sure exactly what amount of money will be transferred. I am certainly not clear—and I do not think that anybody else is—about how it will be disposed of, in relation to who gets what and the disbursement formula that will be used to allocate money. I assume that it will be done on a basis of need, but I have no way of knowing what that is. If I have missed it, I would be very pleased to be pointed towards the work that the Government are doing.

This is a really important part of the Bill and the amendment is the very least that we should ask for. This House should say that whatever sum of money is available at the moment, it would not be safe for us to let it be devolved to local authorities. I am sure that they will do their best and I have nothing against them, but we must impose a condition that any moneys that are disposed of and devolved for that purpose must be devoted to that purpose and to no other.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I remember there being considerable concern in this area upstairs in Committee. Having listened to what the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Turner, said, in particular about the plan in the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I think that there is a way of dealing with the situation. Some of the problems of exactly how it will be spread out and all the rest of it might need a little more administrative attention, but I think this is a satisfactory answer about what to do with this sum of money. I would back it like that. Let us end the argument.