Welfare Reform Bill

Baroness Howe of Idlicote Excerpts

Tuesday 14th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I, too, would like to press the point about the neutrality of the cost that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has stressed. If I may say so, I think that we all owe the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, a huge debt for the way in which she has pursued these issues and, equally, for the way in which the Minister has responded. I hope very much that when he is considering again, he will bear in mind the number of women—and it is women, I am afraid—who are on their own left to cope with children in this situation. That is a particularly important point, I would argue.

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, I had not intended to contribute to this debate, but I wish to speak briefly. As a neurologist with a long experience of caring for children with many forms of disability, I am fully aware of one important issue: that the nature of the disability may be relatively non-progressive—for example, in patients with cerebral palsy. The needs of children with cerebral palsy vary and change as they grow older. The problems faced by their carers—often a single parent, or both parents—become more demanding as the child grows older and is heavier and more difficult to manipulate.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said, think again about patients with muscular dystrophy of the most severe kind. Boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy, by the time they are seven, eight or nine years of age, are still mobile and still go to a normal school but walk with increasing difficulty. By the time they are 10 or 11, they are often confined to a wheelchair. In past years, many of those boys died in their teens. Nowadays, with vastly improved care, with improvement in their respiratory support and so on, they pass through that period of transition from childhood into adulthood, where their disability is greater and more demanding. Unless they are given proper support by carers and the support that they need in terms of respiratory support and suchlike, the demands on their parents become much greater. Furthermore, it is important to recognise that proper care and support in the home prevents a large number of emergency admissions to hospital, with major burdens on the National Health Service.

I was reassured at the beginning by what the Minister said. Can he assure us that the actual mechanisms of these three grades of support, and that important change from childhood into adulthood, are properly met by the provisions of this Bill? Will he also assure us that the recognition that disability is not static and that demands on the carers vary is fully taken account of in the decisions that are being made?

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[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I shall be even briefer in supporting my noble friend Lord Best. My noble friend Lord Wigley has pointed out the vulnerable groups that will suffer from this provision. My noble friend Lord Best has made an effort to concentrate on the groups that will suffer most. Therefore, I very much hope that these groups will be excepted by the Minister. Given the regional differences in the price of housing and all the other problems, without this sort of amelioration it is too worrying to think of the consequences of wanting to claim this sum of money from the people least able to pay it.

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In saying that, and in conclusion, I would say that I have pressed my noble friend on the Front Bench to make absolutely clear, or as clear as he can, that this is not just going to be a set of regulations shoved in front of the House, with a yes or no answer at some point in a few months’ time. We need an assurance of a proper consultation. I have not sought to achieve this mechanistically by an amendment but by a proper consultation and a willingness to go back to a first draft of the regulations as a result of that consultation—something more elaborate and participative than we usually have with statutory instruments. That is important, and it would help me enormously if my noble friend could make it clear that that is the way he will proceed. Subject to that, I hope very much that the House will go along with my noble friend’s compromise amendment this evening.

[Baroness Howe of Idlicote]

My Lords, I am another of those who very much backed the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay. I was amazed and encouraged by the immense cross-party support for what he aimed to achieve. I remind noble Lords that the majority was, I think, 142 votes. However, I find this situation difficult. I certainly have been briefed again by Gingerbread and other organisations, which very much support the amendment in the name of my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. She has told us that she will move the amendment on behalf of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay.

Looking at the scene as it is now, the statutory maintenance scheme exists because it is in the interests of society that all children are properly supported by both parents, including when they separate. It is right to encourage and support parents to do the right thing and to make the arrangements, which of course we have all heard about, as a means of people sorting out their own affairs. It is equally right for the state to step in to secure maintenance for children—the emphasis is on the children—if the non-resident parent, despite being given every chance, still fails to pay of his own accord.

With something like 46 per cent of parents with care receiving less than £20 per week in maintenance—I find that figure slightly at odds with the enormous figures that the Minister has given us today on the amount that will go to children and single parents—the risk is that those likely to receive only modest amounts of child maintenance will look at the collection charges and decide that it is hardly worth all the hassle from the non-resident parent to insist that CMEC collects the maintenance. However, is it in the best interests of the taxpayer if such parents are priced out of the system or money for their children is reduced by collection charges? Making children poorer in this way surely will not benefit children or society in the long run. It is all likely to cost us more, as we probably all recognise.

I have had an indication from my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss that she is unlikely to press her amendment. I must admit that my concern, and the concern of most of us, is for those families who are on their own and where possibly, if not certainly in too large a number of cases, there has been violence at home and the family is perhaps living in dread of any form of contact with the father. However, they are still expected to pay—what is it?—a 7.5 per cent or 7 to 12 per cent continuous fee as long as the money is collected. I really do not like that situation.

I have to admit that if there was a Division, I would certainly vote for the amendment moved by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, but if there is to be no vote, I cannot exercise my right to do that. I think that I have said enough.

[Lord Higgins]

My Lords, after almost 10 years on the opposition Front Bench as spokesman on social security, and despite the attractions of debating intellectually with the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, who was the Minister throughout the period, I decided never to speak on the subject again, but I fear I am provoked. Like others who were involved with the then Child Support Agency, I bear quite a number of scars. On one occasion I invited all those who had written to me about it in a constituency to come to a meeting. I must say that I have rarely experienced such bitterness as was expressed by a second wife who was determined that the husband should not pay anything either to the former children or to the former wife. This, I am afraid, underlies much of the problem.

I want simply to say a word or two in the context of the statement made by the Leader of the House earlier today with regard to parliamentary privilege. I think that I agree with absolutely every single word he said, but none the less it left a degree of ambiguity because he pointed out that amendments in lieu to a Commons amendment should not be put forward if they are likely to invite the same response. The problem with that, if the privilege amendment is claimed in the other place, is that it is essentially about quantity and money—and here we really do not know. Clearly if the amendment in lieu costs even more than the previous amendment, it is not likely to be accepted and therefore is probably inappropriate. On the other hand, if the amendment costs somewhat less, we really do not know whether it would actually be regarded as invoking the same response. Basically, we are in that situation this evening.

No one is more determined than I am to cut the government deficit; I think that that is crucial. The argument that we are going too fast and doing too much is simply not the case. Many of the proposals for cutting expenditure have simply not happened yet. It was estimated the other day that only around 20 per cent have taken place, so that is very important indeed. Having said that, we have to beware of the Treasury going for cuts which are in fact not likely to affect the economic situation or, as was suggested the other night on a trivial amendment from the Front Bench, which would result in our borrowing costs in international markets going up. We need to assess things within a reasonable range on the basis of the quantities involved.

I would be grateful if my noble friend the Minister could say what the loss to the Revenue would be if the amendment put forward by my noble friend Lord Boswell were to be accepted. I get the impression that there would be no costs at all, in which case it would certainly be a legitimate amendment for us to make. It is more difficult on the other amendment, so it would be helpful to have some figures on that. But I suspect, as my noble friend Lord Newton has said, that in the present economic situation we are likely to find that this will come back yet again, and I am not sure whether that is something we ought to undertake. Given that it is a difficult situation, it would be helpful to have a factual statement from my noble friend on the actual quantities involved.