Energy Bill [HL]

Baroness Harris of Richmond Excerpts

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Harris of Richmond)]

My Lords, if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and resume after 10 minutes.

Clause 33: Regulations and orders

Amendment 20A

Moved by

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[Baroness Noakes]

My Lords, briefly, Amendments 20A and 20C, which stand in my name in this group, come directly from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s eighth report of Session 2010-11. The amendments concern the level of parliamentary approval that should be given to orders and regulations made under Clauses 1 and 2. The eighth report makes it clear that the powers in Clauses 1 and 2 are significant. For example, the Government have powers to specify in detail what a Green Deal plan is, what improvements fall to be dealt with and what descriptions of property are covered or not covered. Clause 2 confers powers to extend by order the meaning of energy efficiency measures, and therefore the scope of the Green Deal scheme, as well as other matters.

The key point for the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee is that the affirmative procedure is, in its view, the appropriate level of scrutiny, given the ability to extend key terms by subordinate legislation. In paragraph 5 of its report, that Committee recommends,

“that orders and regulations under clauses 1 and 2 should be subject to the affirmative procedures”.

That is what my two amendments provide. I beg leave to move.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

If Amendment 20A is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 20B by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

My Lords, I also put down amendments—Amendments 20B and 20D—which are differently worded but would have exactly the same effect. Having listened to my noble friend Lady Noakes, I have nothing to add, except to support her fully. I believe that it is normal practice for the Government, having considered the proposals of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, to seek to accept them.

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20DZA: Clause 33, page 21, line 25, at end insert—
“( ) Before making regulations or an order under this Chapter, the Secretary of State must report to Parliament with proposals on green deal apprenticeships.”

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I advise Members that there is a mistake in the amendment as it appears in the supplementary Marshalled List. It should state, “Clause 33, page 21, line 35, at end insert—”.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, we have discussed before the issue of skills and whether there will be enough people with the skills required to undertake the Green Deal. Amendment 20DZA would require the Government to report to Parliament before any orders or regulations were made to state where we are on the issue of skills and, in particular, on introducing Green Deal apprenticeships. When we discussed this issue, there was wide agreement on the need to ensure that the workforce has the skills available. At the weekend, the Minister for Skills made an interesting statement that recognised the need to appreciate and value skills in manufacturing and engineering. Clearly, if we are to reach the desired level of Green Deal take-up, we will need significantly to upgrade skills in engineering as well as in science and technology.

I recommend to the Minister the Aldersgate Group’s report, Mind the Gap: Skills for the transition to a low carbon economy, which was published in November 2009. The group is a high-level coalition of businesses, environmental groups, individuals who have been involved in employment and trade unions, all of whom are keen to ensure that we capitalise on the number of jobs that can be made available through environmental work. The group believes that high environmental standards could ensure that we are an international leader in the field. The report—the outcome of a project chaired by former TUC president John Edmonds—is, I found, very helpful. Its key point is that, whatever the speed of our transition to a low-carbon economy, we need to fix the skills shortage in those areas. We are not talking about a completely new skills set so we do not need to build up new skills from scratch, but we certainly need training courses and further work to enhance the current skills set.

The biggest problem identified in the Aldersgate Group report is that, because the debate on the workforce skills has moved on so quickly, people at various levels in engineering and manufacturing in the UK—including at the highest management levels—have not really understood the implications of the degree of change that needs to be made. If we are to meet the significant challenges that we want the Green Deal to overcome, we must ensure that the skills are available. Companies will need to understand the nature of the change and explain the required skills to the workforce.

A number of recommendations in the Aldersgate Group report and in other reports—including some from the Government—deal with very similar issues. What is clear from all the reports that I have looked at is that business needs certainty from Government if it is to invest in skills and equipment. The Government have the responsibility to work alongside industry and those involved in training to ensure that we have the right kind of training programmes at the right time, with the right level of skills and the right kind of skills.

These are significant issues that the Government need to address. All that we ask today is that the Government take this away, look at the level of change that is required and ensure that there are Green Deal apprenticeships in place so that we have the take-up, which will initially come through owner-occupiers—we will come later to the issue of the delays that are currently envisaged in the private rented sector. We need to ensure that we have the necessary number of people who are fully trained to undertake the jobs required.

Amendment 20DZA is a probing amendment. I will be interested in the response from the Minister, but we may want to return to the issue, as we feel that it is crucial to the success of the Green Deal.