Health and Care Bill

Baroness Harding of Winscombe Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Report stage
Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, speaks, I congratulate her and the Minister on Amendment 31. I also want to ask a question. It very much looks as if the integrated care board is marking its own homework, because the duty to keep the experience of members under review is placed on an integrated care board. It is then for the integrated care board itself to make a judgment as to whether it

“lacks the necessary skills, knowledge and experience”.

Quite clearly, any board that has already appointed a group of members is almost certain, in undertaking its review, to come to the conclusion that it was altogether wise in appointing the members with the balance it did. Who is going to monitor this? Who is going to check?

What if you are a local nursing body concerned that nursing issues are not being debated and reflected enough within an integrated care board? What do you do? Who do you go to? As far as I can see, apart from judicial review proceedings there is absolutely no way you can get any change. That is why—and I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, for her work on this—you need amendments like my noble friend Lord Bradley’s to make some specification in relation to those critical areas where it is essential that the board has members with the relevant experience.

My second point for the Minister is this. In introducing her Amendment 9, my noble friend Lady Thornton essentially said that the Bill already lays out constraints on integrated care boards in relation to potential conflicts of interest. All she seeks to do is to extend that to sub-committees of the integrated care board, including place-based committees, which will commission a huge amount of health service provision in future. For the life of me, I cannot see how those sub-committees can be constituted under any different principle from that of the integrated care board itself. Unless the Minister really comes up with a convincing answer on this, I think the House should make its views clear.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, as this is my first contribution on Report, I begin by declaring my interest as the recently stepped-down chair of NHS Improvement and NHS Test and Trace.

I commend the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and my noble friend the Minister and support Amendment 31. In Committee, we debated in considerable detail the constituent elements of the ICBs. I think it hugely important that integrated care boards have a loud, strong, forceful voice for mental health, public health and prevention in all its forms, but I also think it really important that we enable a board to be a proper board.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, questions whether a board would ever assess its own competence and members. Any really good, functioning board in the public and private sector views that as one of its primary obligations. The first line of defence to ensure that a board is performing well is whether it is actually doing an assessment every year of whether it has the appropriate skills. Yes, you should have second and third-line assessments through the CQC and NHS England, but it is the role of a board, and we should let them do that. I believe that Amendment 31 holds these boards to account to do that.

The amendments we have already debated today, enshrining the obligations around public health, health inequalities and mental health, ensure that that is the clear objective of those integrated care boards. I encourage my noble friend the Minister to hold firm and support his amendments and not the others.

[Baroness Walmsley (LD)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have expressed their support for Amendment 31 and my role in it; it is very kind.

I go back to how this arose. It is to some extent influenced by what the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said in Committee. It was quite clear that many noble Lords were very concerned that appropriate levels of skills, knowledge and experience were on an ICB so that it would be able to carry out all the functions that the Bill puts upon it; not perhaps just the list that the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, mentioned, because it was not intended to be an exclusive list. The amendment actually says:

“in order for the board effectively to carry out its functions”.

I think there it means all of its functions.

It was quite clear in Committee that the Government had set their face against prescribing all the different people who should be on a board. But there had to be a way of making sure that the board had all the necessary commissioning skills, and the knowledge and experience of all the areas of health services which that board had to deliver. The board had to have the duty to make sure it could do all of those things—perhaps without prescribing everything, which the Government are determined not to accept.

The solution came to me not just because of what the noble Baroness, Lady Harding, said but because of what my noble friend Lord Thurso said to me in private—not on the Floor of the House. He is a very experienced board chair. He called my attention to the National Audit Office advice on best practice in this respect and a paper on NHS leadership, which recommends something very similar: that the board must have the duty to make sure it has all the skills, knowledge and experience to carry out all its functions, keep that under constant review and report on what it has done and how.

It is inconceivable to me that, if ICBs had this duty, there would not be somebody who knew everything that needed to be known about mental health and public health to effectively commission those services. The duty to report is very important, to keep this in constant review every year and to report in its annual report on how it makes sure that it has got all those skills and that experience. I think the CQC would look very carefully at whether the board had actually carried out the duty put upon it by Amendment 31. If there were any gaps in a service which the board had to carry out, and it did not have the right skills, knowledge and experience to do that, the CQC would be very critical. I commend this amendment to your Lordships.

I will also say in concluding that on these Benches we also support Amendment 9. The noble Lord, Lord Bradley, had a very good point. The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kamall, which I am supporting, is retrospective because it requires that, by the end of when an annual report comes around, the board has to show what it has done in respect of providing the right people to make the right decisions. From day one, what this House has done on mental health and how important it is, with the Government’s co-operation, is right.