Baroness Hanham
Main Page: Baroness Hanham (Conservative - Life peer)Localism Bill
Baroness Hanham Excerpts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)
My Lords, I shall start with Amendment 24 because the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, has asked me to clarify what it means. I do not know because it is not my amendment. It is the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves.
I am also not sure of the problem that gives rise to Amendment 24. I suggest that the noble Lord and I talk about this before the next stage because there is clearly something in his mind about trusts. I do not think it is affected by the Bill but he perhaps still sees it as a problem. I shall give him my answer and then he can consider whether that is necessary.
The order-making power in Clause 5(1) can be used only to remove restrictions and limitations that stop a local authority from acting as a natural person does. It is not a general purpose tool to remove any obligation placed on local authorities such as the removal of trusts or safeguards associated with particular public interests. In exercising the power, the Secretary of State is bound by his own obligations under the Bill in relation to the conditions safeguarding any protections, rights and freedoms which, in our view, provide sufficient safeguards against the removal of any statutory trust in relation to open spaces or parks. I think that answers the noble Lord’s question and perhaps he will advise me whether that is so when he comes to reply. If not and he is still worried about it, we might have a word before we get to Report.
Amendments 19 and 20 reflect a preference for the word “order” over “provision”. Although it possibly makes little difference in practice, we believe that “provision” is right because there may be cases where one order deals with a number of provisions and each provision should meet the tests set out in subsection (2).
We believe that Amendments 21 and 22 are unnecessary. The power is a power to remove statutory restrictions. If the same thing can be achieved in a different way, then it is hard to see how they could be statutory restrictions in the first place. So if an order is unnecessary, I am sure that that would be brought to our attention before it was ever passed.
Amendments 23 and 25 were not spoken to by the noble Lord. As for Amendment 24, this would also be governed by the third and fourth conditions set out in subsections (6)(2)(a) and (6)(2)(b), which say that the provision should be “proportionate” and should strike a “fair balance” between competing interests. However, the noble Lord will tell me whether he needs to discuss this matter further before the next stage or will accept what I have said.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, on the affirmative business, I think that the noble Lord and the Minister will know that the proposal has our support. It seems that the Government are looking hard at recommendations made by the Delegated Powers Committee. We look forward to their comments in due course, but there is clearly a head of steam round the House over this, and I hope that the Government are sensible.
On the question of parishes, I have seen a draft version of the proposed order. I am not sure how widely it has been circulated or what its status is, except that it has “Draft” stamped all over it. It would be very helpful if it could be circulated widely. I think that it is a good order in its present form; it makes it much easier for a parish council to become eligible than it is under the present set-up. We will find out whether the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will also think that it is good, since it may well apply to quite small parish councils. There is no point in discussing that further today—but clearly, before Report, it needs to be in the Library of the House so that everybody can see it.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I confirm that the statutory instrument relating to this is in the Library and has been there since 15 June.
Clause 8 defines local authorities for the purposes of the chapter, which are the bodies that will have the new power. By restricting the definition to “eligible” parish councils, the clause provides a power for the Secretary of State to set conditions by order for which parish councils will have the general power.
We are not making the general power of competence available to all parish councils, as the noble Lord suggested. Our view is that, given the breadth of the power and the widely varying circumstances of parish councils, there should be some criteria in place to demonstrate that the parish is representative of its community and has some understanding of the power to help to prevent misuse.
The draft statutory instrument that we made available to the House in the Library on 15 June indicates our intention that, to access the power, two conditions need to be met. These are that two-thirds of the councillors are democratically elected and that the parish clerk has received training in the use of the new power. These criteria have been discussed with the National Association of Local Councils and other interested parties.
Our aim is to ensure that eligible parish councils will be able to use the new power at the same time as other local authorities—an improvement over what happened with the existing well-being power, which was extended to some parish councils only in 2009. However, the noble Lord asked me particularly about the criteria, and those are the criteria that will be in the statutory instruments.
Amendments 26 and 28 are being considered. I will come back on these at a later stage.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
I wonder if the Minister could help me on one point, although I have not participated in this debate. Is the order in the description of eligible parish councils for the general power the same one that will run for parish councils for neighbourhood planning?
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I would have to get an answer to that for the noble Lord. I am not sure. This specifically refers to the general power. I think that it might be different for neighbourhood planning where there is a parish council, but I would like to be sure. Perhaps I can wave my hands and find out. No one seems to know. If my runner, my noble friend Lord Attlee, can achieve something, we can deal with this. I think that the noble Lord has asked a question that we will need to give a written reply to.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I do not think that I can reassure the noble Baroness about everything at this stage, as she asked a lot of detailed questions of which I had no notice. I will ensure that she receives a full reply to the many questions that she has raised. However, that does not mean that I am not going to answer the other points.
Amendment 29 aims to remove the similar provision in Clause 9; that is, in new Section 5A(1). The aim is to provide the appropriate national authority with powers to prevent stand-alone fire and rescue authorities from exercising the general power to do anything specified, or of a specified description or to set conditions around the use of the power. The noble Baroness referred to restrictions on innovative finance, which I mentioned earlier.
The argument for keeping the provision is also strong for fire and rescue authorities. For example, the power could be used to protect firefighter/public safety or the Exchequer from novel or risky financial transactions. This takes us back to the previous discussion on new Section 5A(1). We are most concerned about any financial arrangements or financial transactions which may or may not be justified and over which nobody has any control, although I admit that that is not covered in the Bill. These provisions provide a necessary safeguard, given the breadth of the new power, to ensure that risks are managed and can be managed.
For a new order made under new Sections 5C(3) and 5C(4), the appropriate national authority must consult and adopt the affirmative procedure. This should ensure that the order is subject to rigorous parliamentary scrutiny.
The effect of Amendment 30 would be to remove entirely the charging provisions set out in Clause 10 in new Sections 18A, 18B and 18C. That would mean that the fire and rescue service would not be able to charge for any functions under the Bill. Charging is optional—it is a “may” in the Bill—and subject to a local consultation. It is capped at up to full actual cost; that is, not for profit. This enables the fire and rescue service to cover its costs for providing services, but it particularly excludes individual and domestic premises.
Fire and rescue authorities are funded to maintain an efficient service. There is no explicit funding for ancillary activities that have increasingly fallen to brigades by default. The noble Baroness made some suggestions about cats up trees and cows in ditches. I have here the words “animal rescue”, which probably amounts to the same thing, and reference to the provision or removal of water in non-emergency situations. Flooding would therefore be covered. There would be other provisions along those lines. Indeed, there is increasing demand for the provision of such services, and that is why the existing charging provisions have been updated in the Bill and why the authorities may make charges.
The noble Baroness will know—she made this point—that charging for some functions has been possible since the Fire Services Act 1947. This power was replicated by Section19 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004. Clause 10(3) of the Bill, which is not removed by this amendment, repeals the Section 19 charging powers in the 2004 Act. Removing the inserted provisions in Clause 10 while repealing Section 19 would mean that fire and rescue authorities would be unable to make any charge for these services.
The noble Baroness also inquired about whether any assessment of insurance had been made. Perhaps I may include an answer on that in my written reply, because of the detail involved.
I turn finally to Amendment 31 about education and reducing deaths. I immediately accept what the noble Baroness said about there having been a welcome reduction in death over the past few years. We believe that fire safety education is a cost-effective means of reducing fire deaths and injuries. Community safety campaigns such as Fire Kills have achieved significant success. Under Section 19 of the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, fire and rescue authorities can already charge for giving advice to persons in relation to premises where a trade, business or other undertaking is carried out.
However, it was never the Government’s intention to enable charging for community fire safety or prevention activities, and I will reflect on the best way to achieve our aim. However, I owe the noble Baroness an apology because in my recent letter I said that the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 covers the promotion of fire safety as a core function. However, the Bill does not repeal this function and, therefore, fire and rescue authorities will not be able to charge for this service. I apologise for the error in my letter. Our intention was that it should not be possible to charge for core functions such as community fire safety prevention. Perhaps I may make that absolutely clear. Fire fighting and emergency medical assistance are highlighted in Clause 10, proposed new Sections 18A and 18B. We have received advice that as community fire safety and prevention is not excluded from the general charging provision, charging is possible. We will seek further and urgent advice. We need to come back to this issue at Report. Given the advice we have received, particularly on this aspect of charging and cost-effective advice to persons and fire safety education, my complete understanding is that we do not want to charge for them, but in order to make that absolutely clear, we will come back to this issue. I hope that the noble Baroness will not press her amendments.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
I am grateful to the Minister for her thoughtful response, which is, I think, confirmation that core functions, as outlined in the 2004 Act, including community safety and fire prevention, would not be charged for. That is extremely helpful. My Amendment 30 was only a probing amendment. It sought clarification on the change from previous statements on what can and cannot be charged for under this legislation. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her offer to come back and answer my questions in more detail.
What I am trying to get at in Amendment 29—a point she has partially answered, but not entirely—is why the procedures are different in proposed new Section 5C(1) and (2) from those in subsections (3) and (4), under which the Secretary of State can stop a fire and rescue authority doing something or can contain it. I do not understand why the process is different and applies only to fire services, not local authorities. If the noble Baroness can address that issue in her reply, it would be very helpful. I am grateful for the consideration that the noble Baroness has given to my concerns, and I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord True
My Lords, it could be that my attention wandered a little, in which case I apologise to the noble Lord. Looking at his amendment, it appears to me that a number of the powers conferred on the Secretary of State by this amendment are precisely the powers which the noble Lord was arguing earlier should be removed or struck down in relation to local authorities. Perhaps the noble Lord could reassure me where the party opposite is because new Section 98C is a twin of Clause 5, which we were discussing earlier, and new Section 98D is a twin of Clause 7, which we were also discussing earlier. Perhaps the noble Lord would explain where the party opposite lies in relation to local authorities and ITAs.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, as the noble Lord has said, this was discussed in the other place. My honourable friend Andrew Stunell gave an assurance that this matter would be looked at and that the attention of the Secretary of State for Transport would be drawn to the debate in Hansard, which would have been very much along the lines of the debate here this evening about making decisions on what should be done.
I cannot go further than to say that discussions are taking place between the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government and the Secretary of State for Transport. I will expect to have details of them in the not too distant future. It would be sensible, if and when we know the outcome of the discussions—and I am sure we will—for the noble Lord to come and talk to me about it before Report, when we can discuss whether the amendment is appropriate and correct. I am happy to offer him that discussion, depending on the outcome of the discussions between the two Secretaries of State.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his support for the amendments. Clearly he is knowledgeable about what goes on in ITAs and PTEs and about the importance of this extended power. The noble Lord, Lord True, was astute to spot that the amendment was a version of one moved in the Commons—it was the original one, tabled before the amendments to Clause 5 and other clauses that we debated tonight. As I indicated when I moved it, if we took this forward on Report we would need to align it with where we were hoping to lead the others.
I am grateful for what is probably a quarter of a loaf from the Minister. Clearly, we will hope for clarity and a decision to be made by the Secretaries of State by the time we get to Report. This is an important issue that we want to take forward, and if we can do so on the basis of agreement, so much the better. I should be grateful if the noble Baroness could keep me and other noble Lords who have an interest in this informed as the discussion unfolds so that we will have the opportunity to consider the matter in good time before Report. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
I am grateful to the noble Lord for clarifying that, but in fact there are some amendments, that take several pages right out, that were intended to remove this whole part of the Bill.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, we have removed—or will remove as we go through, as I understand it—the mayoral arrangements associated with referendum mayors. As the noble Lords will understand, there are two sorts of mayors: mayors who are elected by the local electorate under the Local Government Act and mayors who would have been elected under the new provisions. We have now removed the new provisions on shadow mayors and at the same time taken out the mayoral management associated with that—that is the referendum mayors. However, mayors can still be introduced under the previous legislation. On my understanding—and I will need to be absolutely clear about this—the provisions relating to the mayor and the chief executive can still be carried out because a local authority can elect to do it now anyway.
Unless there is disagreement coming from the Box, I will take it that that is what we are talking about now. We swept out so many amendments that, like the noble Lord, I have not had a chance to chase up on those. If that is not the case, I will advise the noble Lord in due course.
The noble Lord has asked a number of questions that, under the circumstances, I will be very chary about answering because I think we need to be absolutely clear what bits are in and what bits are out. I think it would be helpful if I came back to those, and I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment for the time being.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
If I may express a view, I have to say that I think that that is the right course because it may well be that when the amendments to reflect the change announced this afternoon have been made, this whole passage of the Bill, several pages of it, may look very different. It would then be necessary to consider which of the remaining parts of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, might still like to amend. At the moment I do not see how we can do that.
Lord McKenzie of Luton
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her brief reply. Clearly, we need to get back to these serious issues on Report. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, that, from reading the Bill, I understand that this issue is not linked to how someone becomes a mayor; it is focused on a mayor and executive arrangements, however they are created. I do not think that what we discussed earlier would strike those down. If it did, the amendments would become otiose.
Notwithstanding that point, I say to the noble Baroness that there were a series of questions which deserve a serious answer about why this power is limited to mayors and executives, and does not apply to executive and cabinet arrangements. Why is it only that one model that can be the recipient of the Secretary of State’s powers? More particularly, the protections and the fettering of that very wide power that needs to be undertaken is not just my worry—the Delegated Powers Committee is very clear on it. We will certainly wish to return to that.
The noble Lord, Lord True, made reference to an each-way transfer. My main point was that, if it is to apply at all and if sufficient safeguards can be put in, it should be when there are leader and executive arrangements, and when there are mayor and executive arrangements, as well as the supplementary point about what happens if you go from one to the other.
I do not know whether the noble Baroness has any further information as a result of the missive. If not, I will withdraw the amendment and leave the issue until Report but this is most certainly a matter to which we will return, if we have to, on the basis of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin.
Baroness Hanham
My Lords, I am grateful for that. It would be helpful if we came back to all this. In the mean time, before Report, I will make sure that the noble Lord and the rest of the Committee have a full answer.