Immigration Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Roberts of Llandudno

Tuesday 15th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I was unaware of this situation until earlier stages in the Bill. Like the right reverend Prelate, I do not need to stress the concern; the noble Baroness has done so very effectively. She is absolutely right that this should not be left in the too-difficult-bureaucratically tray. It is an appalling situation and one that I cannot believe any politician would wish on—I was going to say the recipients, but they are not the recipients. That is the whole problem.

My noble friend’s name has been left off, but I tabled Amendment 118 in this group, which is about the issue of vouchers and cash payment, relating to both Sections 95 and 95A. The amendment, I hope, responds to the Minister’s comments in Committee to a similar amendment. At the time he said:

“The legislation needs to be flexible enough”.—[Official Report, 3/2/16; col. 1831.]

He referred to the fact that support is sometimes provided in the form of accommodation or services.

My amendment would provide that, as it were, the default is cash support for reasons of dignity. I do not think that I need to spell all this out again. We have covered it previously, and to me it is entirely obvious that it is undignified to be given support other than in a form that you can choose to spend—to an extent, as obviously there are many essentials to cover, but you can make your own choices. That is fundamental to human dignity, but it is also a matter of practicality.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno referred earlier to the shop that had been established, I think on the Park Royal industrial estate, where everything was on sale for 25p—then it was going to go up to 50p, and then £1. The response was that we should see whether the shop will take the card. That does not respond appropriately to the point.

My amendment would specifically provide an answer to the Minister’s points in Committee that support can be in the form of accommodation or services or, in exceptional circumstances, vouchers, which can be exchanged for goods and services, or a card entitling the holder to goods or services, but primarily in cash.

I wonder whether I can ask the Minister a question on one of his amendments in this group. Amendment 127 refers to,

“a person under the age of 18 who is unaccompanied and who … has leave to enter or remain … and is a person of a kind specified in regulations”.

I realise that that wording is also included in Clause 64(9) but I also realise that I have no idea what,

“a person of a kind specified in regulations”,

might be. I hope that when the Minister addresses that amendment he can explain what a person of a particular kind might be. What sort of kinds are we talking about?

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

Following what my noble friend Lady Hamwee said, I will add the word “choice”. If you have a card or a voucher you have to go to certain outlets—usually the middle-range outlets, not the cheaper shops or the bargain shops. When you get only £36 a week, you have to spend your money very carefully indeed. I enjoy cheese biscuits. I forget the name of the make now; they are cheddar biscuits. Perhaps other Members do as well. I can go to a shop in Llandudno and the marked price is £1.39. I buy them sometimes. If I go to a pound shop they are two for £1. There is a massive difference between what you can buy from a shop that has possibly only limited goods on sale and from one of the ordinary shops—I will not mention them; no publicity this evening.

We are denying people the choice and ability to look after themselves and their families in the best possible way. We spoke earlier of the best interests of the child. I suggest that the best interests of the child here is that the parent can use the money and the value that they have in the best possible way, and is not limited to a certain number of shops. It should be open if you have cash in your hand. You should not be embarrassed at the till because your card is overspent; you will know exactly what you have. I have said this many times to the Minister: we always seem to have a great friendly understanding, but I never got my way on store cards. I am sure that there is the possibility in the Bill to look after the best interest of the child and those who have this benefit. I urge the Minister to accept my noble friend Lady Hamwee’s amendment. It is in only exceptional circumstances that a card or voucher is used; usually it is a cash benefit that they can spend in whatever way they want.

Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (Cm 7944)

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Roberts of Llandudno

Monday 25th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, mention has been made of last Thursday’s debate. In opening it, the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, referred to a recent report by the Economic Affairs Committee of this House which concluded that any immigration policy should have at its core the principle that existing UK residents should be better off as a result. It seems to me that the term “better off” is capable of very wide interpretation, certainly culturally as well as economically and long term as well as short term.

I find it hard to read the changes regarding language as an integration measure as integration is about far more than language. I am no linguist but I know from my own experience that being in a country whose language I do not know is the best way to learn that language. I cannot help commenting on the loss of support two or three years ago for the teaching of English as a second language.

It is a paradox that the changes discriminate against British citizens, as distinct from EEA nationals, whose overseas spouses wish to join them. However, I do not want to go down the route of criticising the statement but rather to ask questions of the Minister—she will have anticipated most of them—because I hope to be helped to support the measure. I do not ask my questions in any particular order. It has been suggested that temporary visas might be awarded to spouses to enable them to come to the UK to learn the language once they are here. I hope that the Minister will comment on that. I should be glad if she could clarify the test. With teachers teaching to an exam—if I can put it that way—to ensure that their pupils get through it rather than learn the subject, will she comment on how the tests and the teaching will be carried out? Can she tell us anything about the extent of discretion that will be given to Border Agency staff, or is the matter to be dealt with just at testing centres and you either pass or fail? Will there be enough centres in the feeder countries? Where are they? What about access for rural applicants? Is there a sufficient number of teaching centres? Teaching will be expensive. Is it proposed to charge fees for the tests? I hope not.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, and my noble friend mentioned the term “exceptional compassionate circumstances”. Those who fall within that term are by definition a small minority. It seems to me that this will mean that the proportionality test in Article 8 will not be met. Will the Minister comment on that? As regards the cap, the impact assessment says that the UK wishes to attract the “brightest and the best”. We do, but as an aside I should say that a country cannot exist just with an elite. What evidence is there about the impact of the interim cap, which has now been in place for a little while? What analysis or representations have been made regarding any disproportionate impact on particular professions and sectors? The quality impact assessment identifies no adverse consequences. That is a very positive statement, but have the Government identified any possible adverse consequences for equality that we should be looking out for? How will any disproportionate impact on a particular nationality be managed by the Government? We know that India and Pakistan are the most extensive users of tier 1, and they are key to this country’s international relations.

What general principles do the Government use to decide what is in the rules and what is in guidance? Can the noble Baroness comment on any impact on families that arises from this. I recall raising this matter with her soon after the election, because I had been asked to do so, and she said that we are not an “inhumane” Government. That is something which I would like to hold on to.

In the debate on Thursday, I gave a clear indication of my attitude—if noble Lords want to say “bias”, that is fair enough. The sectors that were mentioned included the academic, the scientific, the performing arts and other areas that have been mentioned this evening. They were generally considered to be hugely important contributors to the UK’s wealth and specifically to have considerable impact in a number of narrow discrete examples. Mention was made of the underlying principles. The speech which we have just heard by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, is one that we should have available to refer to in the future. I valued his contribution.

We debated the UK’s reputation and the importance of making and keeping friends internationally, as well as the economic benefits and the tax take that successful immigrants generate. I do not want to repeat the speech that I made, although there is a great temptation to plagiarise others, but I will say again that the use of Immigration Rules should be a facilitator not a constraint. I realise that in the context of the cap they should not be in any sense a blunt instrument.

My most important question to the Minister is to ask for her assurance that the Government are still listening and consulting informally on the permanent cap. There have been vociferous and anxious comments about the interim cap, and I hope she can assure us that these, including the debates in Parliament, will feed into decisions down the track. Will Parliament have an opportunity—engineered and ensured by the Government—to consider the permanent arrangements?

The Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, “regrets”. I have to say that what I and, I am sure, others regret more is that under the previous Government we had so little opportunity, except when my noble friend Lord Avebury ensured it, to discuss these issues. I was glad to hear some of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said today, but the reaction to the previous Government’s attitude to immigration was that it was not notably consultative.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, I hope that I am not unduly suspicious, but I rather think there is something in the opposition Motion that is not entirely to do with the cap, but tries to embarrass the coalition. Perhaps I am just a Welshman who should not be thinking that way, but I am afraid that that might be the case.

I look back at the record of the previous Government and I see that new immigration Acts were introduced in 1997, 2002, 2004 and 2006. Another consolidated Bill was on the way and was mooted to contain more than 800 clauses. We never came to it because the general election beat us to it. Each Act was harsher and less liberal than the one before it.

I know from personal experience how we tried to amend the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Bill in 2004—especially Clause 9, which sought to make failed asylum seekers absolutely destitute by withdrawing all their benefits and facilities. We on the Liberal Democrat Benches tried to get rid of that clause, but we failed. The Labour Government would not give way. That was the case throughout the previous Parliament.

We remember the campaign to end the detention of children for immigration purposes, but the Labour Government would not budge. It took the new coalition to take the initiative there. I am afraid that only one voice supported the continuation of detention—a highly regarded former Labour Minister. When the 2006 Bill was going through the House, I tried to get the Government to provide information packs for migrants to inform them of the challenges and concerns they might have on reaching the United Kingdom. The Labour Government refused to provide the packs. I also questioned the delays in the provision of visas for children's choirs from Kampala. There was delay after delay until finally, two days before they were due to leave, the visas came through.