Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Hylton

Monday 2nd February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hylton]

Gloucester is rather nearer to London than 200 miles, which is a possible distance. Having said that, I reaffirm my support for the amendment.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, at the last stage I supported the noble and learned Lord. I had not thought it would be appropriate to come in at this stage because I had to deal with something else while remaining in the Chamber, so I was not able completely to concentrate on what he said. However, as one of those who, I suppose, must be regarded as having danced the most during the earliest part of this afternoon, I reaffirm my support. I trust the courts to take a proper attitude to the issues which come before them, which is what this amendment is about.

Modern Slavery Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Hylton

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I certainly will not press the amendment today, but I wonder which is the chicken and which is the egg here. Of course, there is a concern about skills in identifying possible victims, but because this is an issue, it seems to me that it is all the more important that a duty to do something—maybe not to notify the Secretary of State, but to do something—ought to apply.

This is an unprocessed thought from when my noble friend was speaking. She said, rightly, that anyone who is concerned can go to the police. As we are talking about public authorities—and the Government have a relationship with public authorities—should we be thinking about guidance to all public authorities? As a minimum, it would say, “You may not have the skills, but all public authorities should be aware of this and if you have a concern, go to the police—if you think that there is nothing else you can do, always go to the police”. I think there is some scope—maybe not on the face of the Bill—for a bit more thought to go into the way we are operating our response to these issues.

I think that the Box has had time to process the thought that I did not. What I am saying is that I would be uneasy about leaving it there, because we have all identified that there is a problem that needs getting to grips with.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, may I help the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee? Perhaps the words she is looking for are “reasonable suspicion” rather than 100% identification?

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I was taking words from the Bill; “reason to believe” is what triggers the duty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, it happens here—it happens even in Scotland, as we have heard, that most civilised country.

A number of noble Lords have used words such as “unimaginable” but, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, I can only too well imagine the card—and I share her concerns about the card itself—being slipped into the passport as it is handed over. Of course, the passport is then very often taken by the employer.

I do not want to repeat the very powerful speeches made by so many noble Lords. I was grateful to hear from a number of people, including, most strongly and emphatically, from the three workers themselves to whom the noble Baroness referred, and at the meeting that she organised with Virginia Mantouvalou, who has written a report. Clearly, it is far too long to read here, but one thing particularly struck me. She gives the history of the overseas domestic worker visa and the diplomatic visa. When the concession was originally introduced, it was from concern to enable workers who had been with a family overseas to come here. The comment was made that it was for “a humanitarian reason”—to look after the domestic workers—and look where we have got to.

At that meeting, Kate Roberts from Kalayaan explained how her organisation could no longer help workers who managed to find their way to it, which must be a tiny percentage, because the organisation has to explain the problem with the Immigration Rules. Indeed, it often cannot help because of threats from employers to workers about criminalisation.

A number of noble Lords have also said that we must remember the realities. Measures such as dealing more effectively at the port of entry are important, but they are not enough. One thing that occurs to me on that is that, at the border on exit, when there is suspicion that a girl is being taken abroad for a forced marriage—the border officials are trained to recognise this—there are arrangements whereby they can be taken aside to be interviewed. The noble Baroness is right to point to that. I do not see why it should not happen in the other direction. We need to think about the realities. What people seem to be able to do to get around formal systems is almost beyond our imagining, and it is the realities that we need to fix on.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I happen to have been involved with this situation, which allows serious abuses of incoming domestic workers to happen, since the early 1990s. I have never known such universal support for the need for a reform as we have heard today. I leave it at that.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Hylton

Tuesday 12th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, in the Government’s response to the JCHR, they reject the proposal for an annual report but say that they will be,

“happy to update Parliament on the progress of our work in this area in due course, including as part of the normal post-legislative scrutiny of the Act”.

That is a shame. To many parliamentarians, “in due course” means something rather longer than it does in normal language—but maybe I am too cynical.

Like other noble Lords, I think it is important that what is kept under review—that is another phrase I should avoid because it also has connotations—is far more than the narrow impact of the legislation. I have written down “prevention strategy”, “safeguarding”, “professional training”, “update on CPS strategy and outcomes”, “continuing work with stakeholders”—the list could continue. As I have said before today, I am concerned at the overreliance on girls coming forward for help. Another thing that I am sure stakeholders are very aware of is the impact on the whole family, with other family members, siblings of the child in question, being at risk if they do not support the parents’ decision. There is a range of victims as well as perpetrators in this situation, and that is another thing that we need to keep an eye on.

I hope that, having had the advocacy of a number of very effective Members of this House, the Minister can be a little more encouraging than the Government were in their response to the committee.

[Lord Hylton (CB)]

My Lords, earlier today we had an interesting and worthwhile debate on whether it was better to deal with forced marriages by criminal or civil sanctions. In the light of that, there is a need for reporting on the effect of this legislation. I support the intention of the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, although the precise wording may need to be widened.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Lord Hylton

Monday 10th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I would like to explain this amendment to noble Lords who might think it is a little odd. My noble friend and I discussed the amendment that she has just moved and I suggested the wording that your Lordships will see on the Marshalled List, which my noble friend thought was a good idea. At that point the first amendment would have been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, so we sort of knew what we were doing. Other things moved around us.

The reason for the alternative wording was that it seemed to us that to provide something wider than,

“groups consisting only of women”,

would mean that what was being called for was less prescriptive as to the means, and potentially more affordable, which we hoped would appeal to the Government. However, what is particularly important is that it would widen what is known in the terminology as “the ask”.

I will briefly reinforce what my noble friend said about the children of women offenders who are given custodial sentences, and the importance of looking at the issue in the most hard-hearted way. Separating children from their mothers puts a strain on the whole family, if there are other members of the family, and undoubtedly does damage to the children. The advancing work on the neurological impact on children of being separated from their mother is becoming better known. In hard cash terms as well as in humanitarian terms, trying to reduce to the absolute minimum the number of times this happens can only be to the good of society and the public purse.

[Lord Hylton]

My Lords, I venture to intervene in this debate only with trepidation and because in the past I have spoken about the position of women in the criminal justice system. The two noble Baronesses who spoke were absolutely right to emphasise the question of children who are separated from their mothers by custodial sentences. I hope very much that the Government will do their best—I hope that they are listening—to begin implementing the recommendations of the report of the noble Baroness, Lady Corston. Among the things that she asked for were centres for women who are at risk of offending, who have already offended or possibly who need rehabilitation post-offending, post-sentence or during sentence. It would be a great step forward if we could have at least one such centre somewhere in England. Will the Government take this seriously and consider having one experimental centre to see what good results it can achieve? I hope that the Government have also taken on board all the other arguments in favour of the amendment.