Criminal Finances Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for tabling this amendment, which allows us to discuss the Government’s guidance on the new corporate offences in Part 3 of the Bill. Part 3 creates two new offences for relevant bodies that fail to prevent the criminal facilitation of tax evasion. It also provides a defence for a body to show that it has put in place reasonable prevention procedures designed to prevent such criminal facilitation.

The Government produced guidance on the offences, and the related defence, in 2015 and conducted a full public consultation on it. Much of the guidance focuses on the operation of the defence and helps to inform businesses’ understanding of how to determine what prevention procedures are reasonable in their circumstances. The guidance has been discussed extensively with a wide range of businesses and organisations both within the UK and overseas. Following the consultation, the updated guidance was published last year.

In addition to the government guidance, officials have been working with a number of representative bodies to support them in producing their own sector-specific guidance, which can be endorsed by the Chancellor if it is clearly in keeping with the overarching government guidance. The Chancellor’s endorsement of external guidance will provide a hallmark of quality for individual businesses to identify good practice for their sector.

The government guidance makes it clear that it is just that: guidance. It does not set out a tick-box exercise of mandatory requirements for businesses but rather six principles to help each business decide what prevention procedures, if any, are reasonable for them in their individual circumstances.

The government guidance makes it clear that, for each business, there may be a number of appropriate approaches for them to take and that departure from suggested procedures will not mean that an organisation does not have reasonable prevention procedures. Likewise, different organisations may implement the same or similar procedures differently due to their individual circumstances. For example, what is reasonable for a large, multinational financial institution will be different from what is reasonable for a small, domestic retail business.

Conversely, while departing from the guidance will not mean that a relevant body does not have reasonable prevention procedures, nor does complying with the guidance necessarily guarantee that prevention procedures are reasonable. The guidance is not intended to be a safe harbour.

The new offences also provide a defence for a business where it was reasonable for it to have no procedures in place. A business can therefore avail itself of the defence without having followed the Government’s guidance if it was reasonable for it to have no procedures in place; for example, because the risks it faced were so remote that it would be unduly burdensome for it to put in place prevention procedures.

I hope that noble Lords will therefore agree that it is not necessary, and may impose undue burden, to force businesses to have regard to the government guidance. Those businesses which need to put in place prevention procedures and which seek to be compliant will likely already have regard to the government guidance. This has been demonstrated by the excellent engagement from many sectors on the development of the guidance. Accordingly, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, understood my thinking exactly, although I wonder whether it would be helpful to this House to use a procedure which is often used in the Commons to explain that one is probing to try to understand whatever is proposed and the thrust of a particular amendment—I was probing, as I had indicated to the Bill team.

I had not expected that answer, but I now understand the range of things which can happen under this clause. One is accustomed to phrases such as “for different purposes and for different persons”, which is what I think we are being asked to read into this provision. I note that the Minister said that guidance,

“can be endorsed by the Chancellor”—

I was not sure what route that was taking me down. I am grateful to noble Lords for indulging me. I, for one, now understand better what is proposed. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence (Ratification of Convention) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Baroness Vere of Norbiton

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 10th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab)]

I compliment the noble Baroness on raising the issue of people’s attitudes. I declare an interest: as a local councillor in Preston in the early 1970s, I was part of a group trying to establish refuge provision. I was invited to speak to senior members of Chorley Council. The then leader of that council finished the meeting by saying that he was absolutely appalled that men in Preston behaved like that—of course, they did not in Chorley. Another councillor came to speak to me and said that her son-in-law was a barrister and her daughter had complained of being a victim. The daughter’s father would not believe that a barrister could behave like that. Today’s debate demonstrates the wide range of backgrounds and areas that people come from.

[Baroness Vere of Norbiton (Con)]

My Lords, I remind the House that if there are to be interruptions they should be kept very brief.

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, I am grateful for that intervention. I was about to say that one often hears, “It does not happen here”. The lack of understanding that what is happening is a crime is, sadly, shared among those who experience that crime.

I am a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which in 2015 undertook an inquiry to examine progress towards ratification. The noble Baroness referred to that. Its report told your Lordships that,

“the Convention would have a strong indirect effect on the UK legal system”,

firstly in that it,

“could be cited by the UK courts as persuasive authority”,

and secondly through the role of the European Court of Human Rights, given that the Government are bound by its judgment and, therefore,

“the terms of the Convention could have a strong indirect effect on the UK legal system”.

The report also commented on some of the evidence that the committee had obtained. Witnesses had told the committee that ratification would,

“help the UK’s position internationally in tackling violence against women and girls and would encourage other countries to follow suit”.

The Bar Human Rights Committee of England and Wales said that ratification would emphasise the state’s positive duty and it would,

“provide a further basis in law for those who wish to persuade the state to provide adequate and meaningful resources to construct an effective mechanism to protect women from gender violence and harm”.

That raises the question of whether there is a resource issue behind this which may not have been acknowledged in the same way as the concerns about the devolved institutions. I hope that the Minister will assure us that there is no resource component precluding ratification. The evidence from the Minister to the Committee referred to ratification being a matter for the devolved Administrations. Let us not seek to avoid any responsibility ourselves in that area. The Government’s response to the JCHR’s report emphasised their commitment to the convention but referred again to the devolved Administrations.

We have heard about the international context but, as we have also heard, this is not just a third-world issue. Real commitment would put all the mechanisms in place. It would be a considerable achievement of Her Majesty’s Government both to be able to ratify the convention and actually to ratify it. It would be a solid expression of our commitment to preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence. It would put the country’s legislation where its mouth is. According to the JCHR, the UK is in a good position to ratify. The then Home Secretary showed her personal commitment and only a single legislative change is required.

Last year, the JCHR visited Strasbourg. I recall a member of the Council of Europe strongly emphasising the importance of the UK’s example. The context was different—we were talking about compliance with the judgment of the court on a different issue—but the message was the same: the example set by a country which is respected and whose respect needs to be maintained. We support the Bill from these Benches.