Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Baroness Sherlock

Report stage & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 6th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, on the first day of Report, on an equivalent amendment to Clause 4, the Minister gave an assurance that the Government have absolutely no intention of acting incompatibly with the citizens’ rights provisions in the withdrawal agreement. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Flight, has said, that is not the point. He set out very carefully the social security provisions which are the issue here. The concern is that the use of regulations, or secondary legislation, to modify the primary legislation that is the basis of the various benefits could wittingly or unwittingly modify them—“modify” is a polite legislative word for “cause a lot of people a lot of problems”. If this amendment were part of the Bill, it would protect against this.

Last week, the noble Lord referred to the establishment under the 2020 Act of the Independent Monitoring Authority, and I was grateful for that. I share a rather wry smile with noble Lords because provided for in the authority’s powers is that it may make applications for judicial review—we all know the Government’s expressed position on activists and lawyers using applications for judicial review and generally not liking frequent resort being made to them. There is of course a review of the use of judicial review going on at the moment. So I thank the noble Lord for that moment of amusement in this complicated area. I support the amendment.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Flight, this amendment would prevent regulations made under Clause 5 including any provisions that could be inconsistent with the withdrawal agreement. I presume that the aim is to avoid any action that might serve to undermine the rights of UK citizens in the EU and EU citizens here that were guaranteed under the withdrawal agreement.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said, we have had this debate at earlier stages and on Clause 4. On the basis of those past debates, I think there is a decent chance that the Minister will say that this amendment is unnecessary. But as the noble Lord, Lord Flight, pointed out: what is the downside? Given the uncertainty caused by statements elsewhere about the nature of the withdrawal agreement and the extent to which the UK is committed to it, the Minister will understand why some noble Lords are nervous and want the kind of assurances that one would hope she should be able to give without difficulty.

The noble Lord, Lord Flight, explained the terribly important issues that are covered by Clause 5. This will be our only engagement on Report with the subtle joys of this clause. I raised many of the issues about social security co-ordination at Second Reading and in Committee, and felt that I did not get satisfactory answers in Committee. However, I have now received a letter from the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman- Scott, which has provided more information. In the light of that, I do not intend to move Amendment 29 in my name in the next group.

I remain very concerned about the implications for too many people of the loss of reciprocal arrangements for social security co-ordination, but I recognise that we will not get anything more at this stage of the Bill. I hope that the letter I mentioned will be placed in both Libraries. Because it contains information about new developments which were not reflected in the draft regulations shared with us in Committee, it would be helpful if the letter were displayed as soon as possible in the relevant place under the “will write” section of Bills before Parliament, so that its contents are readily accessible to those who are interested.

These are very important issues. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Hamwee and Baroness Sherlock

Committee stage & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 87, 88, 89, 90 and 92. These amendments are parallel to amendments debated on day one in Committee, on Clause 4, and some, of course, are exactly the same. As we heard in the last debate, both the Constitution Committee and the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House have reported. The chair of the DPRRC, the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said that he was “not emollient” whenever it was that we debated Clause 4, and he was right not to be so when dealing with what he called “fundamentally excessive delegated powers”. What I regarded, and regard, as too- wide powers, the Minister then called “clear constraints”. She relied particularly on what the Government have published already: whether it is in its draft, illustrative or final form is irrelevant.

The noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, also relied on the fact that “we”—the Government—would do and not do certain things, but “we” will not always be the “we” that the noble Baroness is referring to, and others whom we actually know. I am sure that, were she on the other side of the House, she would be pointing out that Governments change and individuals change, and it is in no way impugning her integrity to say that there should be protection against future changes without the proper involvement of Parliament.

Yet again it has just been suggested that a debate, without Parliament having a power to amend something, is adequate: “adequate parliamentary power”. It is not. I must say that I for one got a bit lost on some of the arguments in the last debate. In particular, I did not follow why Amendment 85 was unnecessary. I wonder whether we might have a written explanation of the opposition to it. I could not quite follow whether it was because of what is meant by the term “modify”.

The powers will remain and the Government will have them until the Act is amended or repealed. The latter would cause a lot of confusion. It is not only about the here and now; it is about the short, medium and long-term future.

I refer particularly to Clause 5(3)(d), which is the subject of Amendment 89. That says that the regulation-making power includes power

“to provide for a person to exercise a discretion in dealing with any matter.”

I do not think that is in Clause 4, so I wonder about the significance of the addition and what the discretion could be about. Would it be a discretion to apply a restriction or criteria less robustly? I do not think it could mean to apply it more robustly, but I might be wrong in that. I do not think the latter would be lawful. If the Minister is able to clarify that, it would help.

I had intended to quote from the DPRRC report and to comment on the Constitution Committee report a little. It strongly agreed with the DPRRC’s conclusions, but we have heard a lot from the report, so I do not think I need to do so. However, I follow my noble friend Lady Ludford, who talked about the uncertainty that recent events have caused people who will be affected by the changes being made and the big changes to their lives. I think she said that these things could happen quickly, and they certainly can, which reinforces my point about the importance of not just relying on what certain Ministers say today because it might not be the case tomorrow.

This morning, I had an email from a British citizen living in Spain. She said:

“With the withdrawal agreement, both EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens residing in the EU at last felt we had secured a relatively good, guaranteed level of protection, even if not completely perfect (and certainly not as good as we had with the UK a member of the EU!). However, if the government can tear up the rule book in this way clearly anything can be changed on a whim and nothing is guaranteed, and I fear that our hard-fought rights could be just as easily removed.”


I beg to move.

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for raising these issues. I specified my concerns on delegated powers in relation to social security in my speech on the previous group, so I will not repeat them. However, I asked a number of specific questions in that speech, not all of which the Minister managed to answer. Will she commit to respond to each of them in writing before we get to Report?

The Minister has been generous in allowing us access to her officials, who have provided some excellent briefing, but it has taken me two weeks of work to get my head around the interaction of all these sets of powers and the Government’s arguments on the use of delegated powers in relation to the Bill. The Minister will realise that the Committee remains pretty unhappy about this matter, so I encourage her to respond as fully as she can, in writing, both to my points and to those raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and others before we reach Report, so that we can have the best possible debate at that point. I look forward to hearing her reply.