Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Baroness Hamwee Excerpts

Monday 28th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, yesterday I was asked—as we are so often—how we inform ourselves when we have to consider government proposals. I explained the range of sources, including interest groups and organisations which brief us—lobby, in the best sense of the term. On that basis, although it is obviously not the only test, this Bill presents us with some issues to probe and some where the probe may become a challenge. It gives us the opportunity to seek to deal with issues which are not included—as usual—or where the flesh is not yet on the bones and the bones as well as the flesh will be significant. There will also be a lot that is genuinely interesting. The Bill has provoked comparatively little opposition, but lest Ministers think that this means a quiet life, I also explained to my questioner that Members also bring their own experience, expertise, curiosity and judgment.

My questions about Part 1, on the National Crime Agency, come from curiosity as much as anything, and from a concern that, however much one supports a proposition—especially if one supports it—one needs to be satisfied that it will work well. I am particularly interested in the governance of the NCA, its relationship with other players in the policing landscape, and its powers. From what I have heard over the past few weeks and months, it seems that there has been much good will so far in the work to establish the NCA. However, the tasking arrangements, the powers of the NCA to impose requirements on police forces and other agencies to undertake specific activity, need clear and probably detailed structure. It is often easier to find consensus over a principle than the particular detail.

We spent a lot of time in this Chamber and elsewhere in the last Session discussing chief constables’ operational independence when dealing with the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act. It seems to me that there are similar issues of accountability, transparency and cost, as well as the possibility of clashes over priorities and how to do things as between the NCA and police forces.

The underlying rationale of the reorganisation is that crime does not come neatly pigeonholed and that organised crime of all sorts impacts at all levels—international, national and local. Therefore, it is understandable that there are concerns about the role of police and crime commissioners, who have responsibility for the totality of policing in their area. These governance issues need a clear structure.

There is obvious concern—and the noble Baroness mentioned this—that CEOP in particular should not be fettered by being brought into a new agency. The Government have said that it will retain its operational independence and that that phrase is not just a formula. The Government acknowledge CEOP’s innovative partnerships and mixed economy of staff from different disciplines. However, the culture in our policing service is very strong, so determination will be needed to preserve CEOP’s identity. The hope must be that the imagination that CEOP has shown is far from being muzzled but is a source of inspiration beyond that command. How its governance, retaining external partners, can be effective is bound to be an issue, as is how the NCA as a whole sets its priorities.

CEOP is, in the jargon, a brand and so is SOCA. Those who have worked on drugs issues, in particular, tell of SOCA’s worldwide reputation—I have heard Colombia mentioned—and that is among the good guys, so presumably it has quite a reputation among the bad guys too. That must be preserved.

I can understand the links between SOCA and economic crime but I confess that I am not hugely clear about the remit of the Economic Crime Command—or, rather, in this context how it will operate. Does ensuring a coherent approach to economic crime across a range of agencies need a separate command? Why is the Economic Crime Co-ordination Board to remain, and why is the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau to be left with the City of London Police? Is it—or am I too much of a cynic?—that in the latter case, at any rate, the turf war was just too difficult?

I would certainly go along with the argument, which I have heard deployed over the police—that if something is working well it is best not to disturb it. However, I am not sure how logical that is in this particular context. I am puzzled, too, about why the National Cyber Crime Unit is not a command. What is the significance of the structural difference?

I turn from the largest part of the Bill—although of course the word count and the length of the schedules can be misleading—to the shortest, at any rate until Clause 23 is replaced. I am delighted at the prospect of a serious concentration on non-custodial sentences. They are often much more effective, by which I mean that they reduce reoffending, address an individual’s underlying addiction or mental health problems, and do not cause collateral damage to the offender’s family or indeed to the offender, and of course they are much less expensive. Therefore, there are excellent economic and social reasons for having them.

I had not known that there is increasing recognition of the effectiveness of community sentencing. The Prison Reform Trust, among others, reports this. I add to that Peter Oborne’s support in the recent Community or Custody report under the auspices of Make Justice Work. I question whether there is such a lack of confidence in community sentences as is feared. Peter Oborne was brave—and, I think, accurate—in saying that political correspondents,

“report law and order issues in a false and often misleading way”,

with false distinctions between what is “tough” on crime and what is “weak”.

Although I am very conscious of the knowledge and expertise of all the speakers who will follow, I shall express one area of concern and perhaps tread on some toes. My concern is how the proposed punitive element may play out, and whether extended curfews and complex restrictions will themselves lead to a breach of orders with the imposition of sanctions—imprisonment—that will undo all the good. Community sentences must not be a soft option. That is important for victims as well. Restorative justice is not a soft option for the offender or the victim but it is deserving of development. We must all have had the experience of suddenly—shockingly—seeing something through another person’s eyes. One thing that a community sentence, or any sentence, is not about is humiliation. It is footage of defendants in the United States in shackles that prompts both that comment and my caution about having cameras in court. I said in our debate a couple of weeks ago that the sky had not fallen as a result of the broadcasting of Parliament. However, that does not mean that I am an enthusiast for unrestricted filming in court. I heard what the Minister said today, as he has on previous occasions. Probably what is most important is that the judiciary retains control.

One provision that is not in the Bill—I do not know whether we can squeeze it past the Long Title—is reform of the Public Order Act. Do I have a right not to be insulted? I do not believe so. More importantly, if you insult me, should the weight of the criminal law be brought to bear? Insult is so subjective. Section 5 of the Public Order Act is, in my view, bad law. It should go, and so should the term “insulting” in Section 4A.

Another issue which it may or may not be possible to edge in past the Long Title is a matter that my colleagues in the Commons raised—the anomaly regarding the citizenship of children born overseas to an unmarried British man. The law changed to confer British citizenship on such children born after 2006, as the use of DNA progressed, but not for those born before that date. However, that issue would not command the time that we will certainly give to the immigration issues raised in the Bill. I doubt that the powers of immigration officers will pass this House unchallenged, particularly the investigative powers.

As for the provision on family visas, I would simply observe at this point that if making a fresh application is better for the applicant—rather than appealing, as the Government seem to argue—then leave it to the applicant to choose. What seem to be at issue, at the heart of all this, are the standards, training and supervision of the service.

I thought that we might have a year without a new criminal offence. Driving under the influence of drugs is, of course, to be condemned. Although our debates will probe whether objective testing is possible, whether there is a variable impact on different people, whether there is more variation with drugs than with alcohol and how prescribed and over-the-counter drugs—which almost always seem to have warnings about not driving or operating machinery—fit in, that does not mean that we condone drug-driving. What about the new psychoactive substances, with or without a temporary ban in place? I note, of course, that the offence of driving while impaired is not being repealed. There is quite a lot to investigate there.

I look forward to our debates on the single county and family courts, given the knowledge that noble Lords can bring to bear on this issue. My only contribution on it—my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford will probably deal with it—is to have enjoyed reading the impact assessment which describes the policy options as “do nothing” or “do everything”. I also look forward to our discussions on diversity in the judiciary. We have come a long way since my first interview for articles as a solicitor when, having asked about women in the firm, I was told, “We are very broad minded. We have a Nigerian girl working in the basement”.

The most cheering thing I have heard on the proposals is that provisions for part-time working will be significant, because of the significant number of women in—or potentially in—the judiciary who are of an age to which this will be significant. I am very happy that that myth in my own thinking has been busted. This is a Bill on which I will want to attempt only a small amount of busting of my own.