Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Grey-Thompson and Lord Goodman of Wycombe

Committee stage
Friday 14th November 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goodman of Wycombe (Con)]

My Lords, in debating ability and capacity, I will speak briefly as a member not only of the Delegated Powers Committee that considered the Bill but of the Select Committee that also did so. Noble Lords have heard differing views from members of the Select Committee about the various goings on that took place there, but I am sure we can all agree that we heard some very fine evidence.

All I wish to do in intervening here is to quote what Professor Alex Ruck Keene, whom my noble friend Lady Berridge referred to earlier, said about capacity and the role of psychiatrists, as it is extremely relevant to the debate on this clause. He said:

“The point I am trying to make is that, if you simply say, ‘Apply the MCA. Apply the principle of the presumption of capacity. Support the person to have capacity to decide their own life’, I anticipate, if you asked very many psychiatrists, they would go, ‘How am I supposed to think about that?’ That is for a very specific reason. For psychiatrists, most of the time, their job is to secure life. Their job is suicide prevention”.


He concluded:

“We need to know—and one of my real concerns is—how this Bill sits in the wider landscape of the law. I need to be able to tell, because I am going to be one of the people writing the books here and giving the training. I need to be able to say, with absolute crystal clarity, to a psychiatrist, ‘This is the point where you are not in the suicide prevention zone, and if you do not do all steps necessary to try to secure this person’s life, you could be prosecuted or you could be charged in various different ways or be civilly liable’. I need to be able to say, with crystal clarity, ‘You’re no longer in that zone; you’re now in the zone of the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill’”.


I quote the professor simply to draw to the Committee’s attention once again the complexity of the issues before us. Although “ability” may be flawed and legally powerless, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, suggested, “capacity” is deeply problematic in the context of the Bill.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB)]

My Lords, there is probably one thing we can all agree on today: everyone’s frustration with the process of evidence giving. I was hugely frustrated when the committee in another place was looking for evidence but deaf and disabled people’s organisations were not able to give evidence, despite making up 25% of the population.

I hope that I speak on behalf of the whole House when I say how sad it is that my noble friend Lady Campbell of Surbiton is not able to be in her place. She has experience in politics and in the House of Lords of extensively debating capacity, on what became the Domestic Abuse Act and in previous debates on assisted dying. I would urge anyone who has time to look at her contributions on capacity.

My noble friend is an individual who, I am afraid to say, in her 66 years, has been deemed terminal more times, probably, than most of us in the Chamber combined. She has had her capacity challenged probably an equal number of times. I remember a few years ago, when I had not long been in your Lordships’ House, when my noble friend was in hospital and several of us had phone calls to say that we needed to get to the hospital right away because they were challenging her capacity. Her husband was told that she was not able to make decisions on her care because she was delusional. Why was she delusional? Because she had told the doctors that she was a Member of the House of Lords. The response was, “She can’t be in the House of Lords—she’s disabled”. I cannot remember whether her husband got away with taking her pass in; there was talk about having to take her seal in to prove that she was in the House of Lords. But this highlights some of the issues with mental capacity assessment.

I have had personal experience of it. When my father was ill and the doctors found out I had lasting power of attorney, I was taken to one side to argue that he should have a different set of treatment. He had the capacity and ability to decide what he wanted. In this case, he had to have his leg amputated, and he was told that, as a wheelchair user, he would have no quality of life—they said that to me. If there was one thing I could do for my father, I could get him a wheelchair.

More recently, I have had an experience with my husband. At the end of 2020, he had a blood clot on the brain stem—he had a stroke, and he was blue-lighted to hospital. It was a dreadful experience. My daughter was in her first year at university and had to be called home. We did not think he was going to make it, and we were not allowed into the hospital. I was frequently told by the medics that he had no capacity to make a decision on his treatment. My husband said, “Look at the notes”; I said, “Look at the notes”. What they were arguing over in terms of his capacity was his ability to walk. Looking at the notes was really important, because his lack of ability to walk was nothing to do with the fact that he had a stroke; it was due to the fact that he had had a spinal cord injury in 1984 when he crashed his pedal bike into the back of a double-decker bus.

I understand what the Chamber is saying. I have personal experience where I think the Mental Capacity Act has been used in the wrong way. We have to find a way of making it work so we are able to take care of capacity. Like others, I am not entirely sure that “ability” is the right word. I understand what I mean by “ability”; I have amendments later on around the ability to understand decisions. I have one on British Sign Language because of the case of a deaf man who was told by a nurse who could only fingerspell that he had HIV when he did not—he thought for two days that he had HIV—and I have another amendment around people with learning disabilities. So maybe “ability” is not the right word.

My noble friend Lord Pannick talks about legal definitions, and I also have a number of very minor amendments which look at a better legal definition of disabled people. Perhaps we can take this away, work on it and do something. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, said, we have to make it work. We have to look at the Mental Capacity Act through the prism of the Bill, not in terms of what it was designed to do.