Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill

Debate between Baroness Gould of Potternewton and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 86, I will speak also to the other government amendments in this group. I am pleased to have this opportunity to talk about a group affected by the Bill who are often overlooked in our debates—that is, those men and women who are transgender. I would like to put on record my thanks to all those who have sent me many e-mails over the past few days.

This Bill will, for the first time, enable couples who wish to remain married when one spouse obtains gender recognition to do so. This is a welcome development for transpeople who have in the past been faced with the difficult choice between obtaining gender recognition or staying in their marriage. Although the Government do not believe that it is justified, I none the less understand that there is a real fear among some transpeople that the Bill will allow their spouse to veto their attempt to get a full gender recognition certificate, if they do not wish to remain married.

I have listened very carefully to the views that have been expressed in Committee and in meetings with noble Lords about this issue. Indeed, I am very grateful to the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Gould, and to my noble friend Lady Barker, who made time to discuss their concerns with me in some depth. Having done so, I am grateful for the opportunity, through Amendments 87 and 88, to make clear that all the non-trans spouse is being asked to give their consent to is whether they wish to remain married if their spouse changes their legal gender.

It is important to explain why this consent is needed, because some people have questioned why the consent of a non-trans spouse is needed in these circumstances. The reason is this: a party to a marriage obtaining gender recognition is a life-changing decision for the applicant and their spouse. The marriage will no longer be contracted between a husband and a wife of the opposite legal gender, which is why it is right that both spouses have the right to agree to a proposal to change the terms of their marriage before the change takes place.

Regardless of the non-trans spouse's view about the future of the marriage, the applicant is still able to get their gender recognition. Transpeople whose spouses do not give their consent to remaining in the marriage will be in the same position as they are now: it will be open to either spouse to commence proceedings to end the marriage before the full gender recognition certificate is issued. I am very pleased to table these amendments, which I hope will put it beyond any doubt that a spouse will never be able to veto a trans applicant’s ability to obtain gender recognition. I hope that these amendments, which make it clear what both parties to the marriage are agreeing to, will allay the concerns that have been expressed. I commend these amendments to the House.

As to Amendments 86, 89 and 133, I said in Committee that the Government have been considering carefully what can be achieved within the scope of this Bill to assist transpeople who made their transition to their acquired gender a long time ago but have not applied for gender recognition up to now because they would have had to end their marriage. The Bill now gives such people the opportunity to obtain gender recognition while remaining married, if their spouse is content for the marriage to continue. However, applicants who made their transition a long time ago may find it difficult to obtain the required medical reports from gender dysphoria specialists.

These amendments will assist such applicants by making the new fast-track procedure available to transpeople who are or were in protected marriages or civil partnerships and who transitioned six years prior to the commencement of these provisions and by reducing the amount of medical evidence they will be required to submit to the gender recognition panel. Such applicants for gender recognition will be required to submit one medical report, either from any medical practitioner, including a GP, or from a registered psychologist who practises in the field of gender dysphoria.

I can assure the House that a great deal of time and consideration has gone into developing these amendments and I hope that they further demonstrate the positive changes the Bill is seeking to make to the lives of married transpeople. I therefore commend them to the House.

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

My Lords, I begin by thanking the Minister for her tolerance and forbearance throughout our discussions on this very complex issue and for taking the time to meet me and the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Barker, to see if it was possible to arrive at a common view. Before looking at how successful our talks were, I want to say, on behalf of the trans community, how much we appreciate the inclusion in the Bill of the clauses that remove anomalies in respect of married transpeople who wish to apply for recognition by removing the requirement for them to be single at the point of gender recognition and so removing the obligation to dissolve their existing marriage or civil partnership. Equally important to the community is the concession on spouses’ survivor pensions, ensuring that no ongoing financial penalties will be incurred should a transperson in an existing marriage gain gender recognition. The Minister has just referred to the fast-track procedure, which is also very much appreciated.

However, there came a little disappointment because we have been unable to resolve the concerns over spousal consent. We appreciate that the amendments that the Minister has outlined clarify the position in respect of married couples and the definition of a statutory declaration of consent. However, in reality, it makes little difference in terms of that consent; the divorced would probably not be en route to registering a civil partnership. It makes little difference for the transperson. It does not really matter if the spouse is going to consent to the marriage or give consent for recognition. The principle thrust of opposition to the schedule remains unchanged.

There was a temptation to try to arrive at a further amendment that might resolve the differences between us, but that would have required a lot of detailed discussion and deliberation. Although I am not wholly happy with what we have in front of us, I suppose that it is, in some ways, a step in the right direction, which I acknowledge. I hope that there may be another opportunity for that discussion to take place and, when it does, I hope that the Minister will again be co-operative, as she has been, in trying to resolve our differences.

This is almost certainly the unfinished business of the Bill. There is no doubt that the transgender community is angry and will continue to be angry until we manage to achieve some resolution of the problem because its members remain concerned that the Bill provides a spousal veto. Therefore, at this stage, I seek the Minister’s assurance that after the Bill becomes law this issue will be considered in post-legislative scrutiny.

Violence Against Women and Girls

Debate between Baroness Gould of Potternewton and Baroness Stowell of Beeston

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I declare an interest as a joint patron of Everyman, an organisation working to overcome such violent behaviour.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

My Lords, the government strategy to end violence against women and girls sets out our approach to responding to perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse. This includes: challenging attitudes and behaviours through communication campaigns; funding the Respect Phoneline, which offers support and advice to people who are violent and want help to stop; and developing intervention programmes for convicted perpetrators of domestic violence and abuse—programmes delivered in partnership with support services for victims.

[Baroness Gould of Potternewton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, but does she believe that the prevention programme goes far enough? Surely she will accept that prevention is fundamental to reducing domestic violence, not only for the sake of the victims and their families but for reducing the financial cost to the NHS and local authorities. That is particularly important at this time, given the estimated 31% cut in support for refuges and support services for victims, which means that more of them will have to stay with the perpetrator. The Government need to help those perpetrators with a strategic prevention plan that includes a programme of education in schools.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I agree with the noble Baroness that primary prevention is vital. That is why we are trying to change attitudes that can lead to violence against women and girls at an early age through national advertising campaigns such as those against teenage relationship abuse and teenage rape. One of those campaigns will be starting again shortly. We are also working with partners to see whether more can be done to identify and support perpetrators at an early stage and encourage them into voluntary programmes to address their behaviour. However, as I am sure that noble Lords will acknowledge, we need to input a great deal of effort when perpetrators are picked up by the criminal justice system, because, while we want to try to tackle this before anyone commits this terrible act of violence in the first place, it is just as important that as soon as a perpetrator has been identified and has gone through the criminal justice system we have a robust programme in place to deal with these men to avoid them reoffending in future.