Pensions Appeal Tribunals (Late Appeal) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Jones

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Baroness Goldie) (Con)]

I proffer my apologies to the chairman and the Committee. I am terribly sorry that my late arrival meant the adjournment of the Committee. We thought the Transport (Scotland) Act order would be a much meatier affair than it apparently turned out to be.

My Lords, we enter the somewhat technical world of the MoD Armed Forces compensation schemes, but we do so for an important and necessary reason: because the statutory instrument before us will change the rules allowing late appeals against decisions under the various Armed Forces compensation schemes in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The purpose of these changes is to align the rules for Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales.

The schemes provide compensation to persons who have sustained illness, injury or death wholly or partly as a result of service in the regular or reserve Armed Forces. Claims made under the rules of the various schemes are decided by the Secretary of State for Defence, and claimants who do not agree with the decision have a right of appeal against most substantive decisions. Before 2008, all such appeals were made to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal, which operated across the whole United Kingdom under the provisions of the Pensions Appeal Tribunals Act 1943.

Following the 2008 courts and tribunal reforms in England and Wales, a War Pensions and Armed Forces Compensation Chamber of the First-tier Tribunal was created in England and Wales with its own rules, made under an Act that extended to England and Wales only. The Pensions Appeal Tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland continued to exist under the provisions of the original 1943 Act.

As I have said, claimants who disagree with certain decisions by the Secretary of State may appeal those decisions; they have 12 months in which to make that appeal. There is also provision for what is known as a “late appeal”. This is an appeal that is made more than 12 months after the original decision but within 24 months, because no appeal is ever possible after two years. As a result of the 2008 reforms in England and Wales, a late appeal is accepted by the First-tier Tribunal unless the Secretary of State objects. If the Secretary of State does object, the tribunal has the power to consider the matter and admit the appeal if it is fair and just to do so. However, the provisions of the 1943 Act still apply to those tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Until recently, these provisions did not allow tribunals in those jurisdictions to treat late appeals with such flexibility, as they could do so only in specific circumstances set out in regulations.

The Lord Chancellor established a War Pensions and Armed Forces Compensation Advisory Steering Group to pursue consistency in the procedure for appeals across the United Kingdom. It concluded that existing late appeal processes may possibly disadvantage appellants in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The request to make these amendments came from the presidents of tribunals in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The devolved Administrations have been consulted on, and have approved, the draft regulations.

In 2021, amendments to the 1943 Act were made. They allow us to align the rules under which late appeals are accepted in Scotland and Northern Ireland with the current rules in England and Wales. These draft regulations seek to amend the 2001 regulations to remove this anomaly and align the rules on late appeals across the whole of the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her incisive and always-informed remarks.

At paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the word “consistent” is used. A consistent approach is to be welcomed. However, can the Minister tell us about the ASG—that is, the advisory steering group? Who heads it? It looks very formal. It is advisory but shall its members be paid? Do we know what amount the group’s members receive? Are there any names of which the Committee might be informed? We need information regarding the names concerning the representative ex-service and service communities. One does not want the high and mighty of law and government ministries leaning heavily on the humbler members of the ASG. If the MoD is involved, rank will be a consideration. The judiciary also carries weight. On membership, does everyone have an equal voice?

At paragraph 7.2, we learn of appeals. Might the Minister flesh this point out by instancing an appeal case? What might it entail?

On paragraph 7.4, how many appeals were heard in 2021 and, if it is possible for the Minister to say, 2022? Again, I thank the Minister for her remarks.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, predictably, although this may be a somewhat technical and relatively short debate, your Lordships have advanced questions, some of which I may not be able to answer; I may have to offer to write.

I will deal first with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Jones. I do not have before me specific information about the compensation advisory steering group—members, who leads it, whether they are paid or whether there are ex-service representatives—but I can undertake to find out that detail. I am just glancing at my officials and, reassuringly, their faces are as blank as mine. If the noble Lord will be patient with me, we shall find out that information and I shall write to him.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

I am grateful for the Minister’s remarks. I admire the way she does her business. I simply want to say that I rise often in this Committee as a point of principle, rather than to ask questions that may or may not be answered by the given Minister. Having been a Minister in three Administrations in another place, one’s sympathy is always with a Minister seeking to answer.

The main thing that comes to my mind is that so often in this Committee there are orders and regulations that really should be on the Floor of the House. Important regulations and orders are often so badly attended. They can go through without any consideration as to how they affect the citizenry. I thank the Minister.

Armed Forces (Covenant) Regulations 2022

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Lord Jones

Tuesday 18th October 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I think I was addressing the contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Jones, when we were summoned by Division Bells. I was talking about the role of reservists. Following the important review of reservists carried out by my noble friend Lord Lancaster, some really helpful and interesting virtues were identified. One quite simply is this: we have among our reservists skills that we might not regularly have in the regular Army. One of the desires is to ensure that we can offer reservists a more flexible career opportunity: that is, if we have need of a particular skill and a reservist possesses it, we can draw them in for a fixed period that they can work with and that their employer can cope with. That is why Future Soldier creates a template for an exciting future for our Armed Forces. Reservists will play a critical role in that.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, also asked about engagement and consultation, specifically the matter of focus groups. The engagement that took place in drafting the guidance was comprehensive. We worked with our stakeholders to develop the statutory guidance, but we engage with a wide range of groups, including the devolved Administrations, covenant partners across government, the Armed Forces community, local authorities, relevant ombudsmen, and the service charity and welfare sectors. That gave us a very broad basis on which to frame our guidance.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

That is a very broad answer. I did ask a specific question, but I know that time is of the essence.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I looked at the Explanatory Memorandum. My understanding is that focus groups are designed specifically to encompass those groups that have an interest and have knowledge. I hope it is clear from the list that I just enunciated to the Committee that there has been very broad consultation, importantly, with the people who know about this, understand it, and have a stake in making sure that it works.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, raised a number of points, some of which I have already addressed, but particularly the important issue of the statutory duty of “due regard”. As a former lawyer, I well understand why he homed in on what exactly that means. The purpose of the statutory guidance is to help organisations understand and discharge their obligations. On enforcement, the duty we have created does not mandate particular outcomes. It is very important to be explicit about that. That is because it is not within the ability of the MoD to control what the deliverers do, whether they are devolved Administrations, local authorities or health boards. That is not what we want to do. It would therefore be inappropriate for the guidance to include a level of prescriptiveness that goes further than what is already set out in law.

We expect that, by raising awareness, we will reduce disadvantage. We do not seek to penalise or police public bodies because we are not in position to do so, but we do not want to do that anyway; they are autonomous and freestanding, and have their own responsibilities to discharge. If there was a disagreement or dissatisfaction, we imagine that the starting point would be that complaints would be pursued in the normal way, whatever that was for a health board, a hospital, an education facility or a housing complaint. I think that the vast majority of complaints would be resolved in that manner. Certainly in the first instance, any grievance should be pursued through the internal complaints process of the relevant local authority or public body. If the matter is still unresolved, I suggest that the relevant ombudsman would be able to consider the matter if the complainant did not think that the authority had followed its own policy correctly. In our work supporting the implementation of the new duty, we will certainly promote these mechanisms among our Armed Forces community.

As a last resort, and this would be a very heavy hammer to deploy, the opportunity to challenge an alleged failure to comply with the duty would be by way of judicial review. That would obviously be an unattractive prospect to many, but it could well be a legal option available to a class group of people if they were dissatisfied. To take the example of dentistry from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, it might very well be that the provision of dentists is not a problem in one part of the UK but it might be a huge challenge in another. I imagine that if veterans or service personnel in that area felt aggrieved then they could very easily put pressure on, and they might very well have resource to bring a class action. Remedies are there.

It is important to remember that the duty does not require certain outcomes to be achieved, just that these public bodies need to consider the covenant. That will lead to better policy and decision-making in relation to the Armed Forces. I hope that reassures the noble Lord that thought has been given to this and that we anticipate the system being workable and, for providers, deliverable.

Finally, the noble Lord asked me about Gibraltar. I recall—no doubt he will correct me if I am wrong—writing to him about this. My recollection is that Gibraltar is outwith the scope of the Act and not within its jurisdiction. However, it can apply the Act using its own legislation: technically, if it wishes to invoke in respect of its own forces provisions that we have introduced in the Armed Forces Act, it can use its own legislative powers to achieve that. So it is a technical issue of being outwith the jurisdiction of and not encompassed by the Act.

I have tried to deal with the points that were raised. I hope that I have covered them. If I have omitted to deal with anything, I will gladly undertake to write to your Lordships, of course. In the meantime, I thank noble Lords for their contributions.