Jamal Khashoggi: United Nations Report

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Thursday 27th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the report by the United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions Investigation into the unlawful death of Mr Jamal Khashoggi, published on 19 June; and whether, in the light of that report, they will call on the United Nations to institute a full, high-level judicial inquiry into such crimes.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, as the Foreign Secretary has said, the Government condemned Jamal Khashoggi’s killing in the strongest possible terms. The United Kingdom reiterated that at the United Nations Human Rights Council yesterday, and we thank the special rapporteur for her work on the report. The Government remain clear that anyone found responsible following a credible and transparent judicial process must be held to account. We are concerned about reported restrictions regarding the investigative process. We continue to work with our partners on how we can act collaboratively.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I was the legal adviser to the rapporteur and travelled with her to Turkey with a forensic pathologist and a very senior retired police officer. We met senior ministers—the Foreign Minister and the Minister of Justice—the chief prosecutor, the investigators and the head of intelligence. We were allowed to listen to the tape of the killing of Mr Khashoggi. We heard intercept telephone calls on tape showing that this was not some rogue operation but was planned by people who were agents of the Saudi state.

The case raises serious issues about the rule of law, for which Britain is recognised around the world. I am asking whether it is enough for us to await the outcome of a trial in Saudi Arabia. Should we not be pressing the UN Secretary-General to initiate a formal judicial inquiry? A prima facie case has been well established. The body is still missing and we know nothing about that. I met Mr Khashoggi’s fiancée last week and she is still unresolved about this whole matter. We have questions to ask about the nature of the trial and whether it conforms to due process.

Is the Foreign Office taking the stand that it should be about the rule of law and demanding that some kind of formal inquiry be set up at a judicial level by the UN and, if not, that there should be a coming together of nations around the world that care about the rule of law, given the fact that we have seen this happening in Salisbury at the hands of Russia, in North Korea and so on? We really have to assert the importance of due process.

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. I pay tribute to her role in the special rapporteur’s investigation. She is right that this country is associated with the robustness of the rule of law and with a widely —indeed, globally—acknowledged judiciary. However, the important point here is that, whatever the noble Baroness may feel about the shortcomings of the process, there is a legal process in Saudi Arabia, and it is the United Kingdom’s judgment that it is correct to let that process run its course. We are observing the trial along with our international partners. It is important to let that process conclude. As I said earlier, we continue to work with our global partners, not least with our friends at the United Nations, and we will consider how we can act collaboratively. The noble Baroness is correct that the report raises a range of serious issues but there is a process that has to be respected and allowed to run its course.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Wednesday 9th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not support this withdrawal agreement and I will be supporting the idea of a second referendum. My first and preferred choice would be that we acted in our traditional way with representative democracy, meaning that we just sent back our letter of withdrawal from the European Union. But that is unlikely to happen—even with renewed vigour of the House of Commons. I support the Motion of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, saying that we should take no deal off the table because of its catastrophic consequences.

I have a number of questions for the Government. Do they agree that if we head towards no deal, it will be necessary for there to be legislation to address the implications of that trajectory, given that the withdrawal Act did not contemplate or put in place steps to deal with no deal? I ask that because of the great experience of the learned counsel who sits on the Front Bench to answer such questions. If there is no deal, do the Government agree that the political declaration cannot be prayed in aid by no-dealers, because it does not apply, as it is part and parcel of Mrs May’s withdrawal agreement? Therefore, it falls away as soon there is a vote against the Government’s current deal.

I want to reiterate that, along with the rule of law, our parliamentary system of representative democracy has been one of our gifts to the world—certainly to many parts of the world. It is not our tradition to run things by plebiscite. We know that some policy matters of national concern are of such complexity that they require careful research and debate and the sharing of expertise. One thing that has happened since the referendum is that the general public have been learning, in the way that all of us have, about the sheer extent of our collaborations and the benefits that have come from our work inside the European Union and being part of that trading bloc. We have had the benefits of huge quantities of information, risk analysis and economic forecasting, and professional interventions by people in business, finance, vice-chancellors of universities, academics, doctors and scientists, researchers and inventors, agriculturists, environmentalists, artists, creators, lawyers and judges, the intelligence community and indeed the police. The evidence is overwhelming that to pull out of Europe, either with this current deal or with no deal, would have serious consequences for this country and wreak havoc. I am rather pleased to see the House of Commons asserting its powers again—indeed, taking back control, as was invoked. But it is within its power to say enough, and I hope that it will consider revoking Article 50, even if only to give us more time.

Of course people would be angry if there were a second referendum and the decision to leave were reversed, but many others will be very angry if we crash out of the European Union or find that this deal will leave our children and grandchildren with dire consequences. Mrs May’s deal is being presented now as the moderate middle way. I hear that coming particularly from the Cross Benches and I want to remind people that it is not a middle, soft Brexit: it is a hard Brexit that will provide us with no protection from the economic woes coming our way. As President Trump ratchets up pressure on China through the expansion of trade tariffs, we not only have to face the consequences that other countries will have to face, but the consequences will be worse for us than for other parts of the world. The exposure of UK banks to China’s downturn exceeds the exposure of the US, the euro area or Japan and Korea combined. Analysts in the World Bank and the Bank of England have already reported on their deep concerns.

We have been told that we are ready to embrace a new golden age. Mrs May said that,

“our best days lie ahead of us”.

Who is she kidding? That is all to save face, partly because her own Ministers proved such incompetent negotiators. The markets in the UK and the US experienced their worst year last year—the worst since the financial crisis in 2008. A few lucky hedge fund managers have made fortunes from the nosedive in the values of companies in recent months but, for most, the sharp downturn is bad news—lower pension values, falling taxable revenues and greater corporate pressures. That all adds up to serious problems ahead. A lot of companies such as Apple are already feeling the pain. A lot of that is to do with the slowdown in China’s economy. Is this the time for us to leap into the unknown? Do we really trust Mr Trump and his cronies? Are we happy that Putin is so pleased with our direction of travel?

I said in the last debate that this is an elite globalisation project wrapped in a flag of nationalism and populist concerns. It is motored by ideologues, and of course they have joined forces with those with the sentimental, nostalgic feelings that many of our fellow Peers have expressed. Basically, the ideologues want deregulation at all costs. They want small government and to tear up the social contract that provides solidarity, community values, social services and care. They are people who want, as has already been said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, to tear up the rules-based progressive internationalism of which we have been a part that was forged after World War II. They see those who do not agree with them as losers. This is the world of Mr Trump, Mr Bannon and Mr Farage, and the world of Messrs Johnson and Rees-Mogg. They are basically unpicking so much of the stuff that we have worked for since World War II.

The people of this country were lied to. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Trevethin and Oaksey, that this is a plot against our democracy, but not by people who want to remain in Europe. It is a plot by people like Dominic Cummings and the people who put together that campaign, which lied to the British people and defrauded them. He asked, “Have you ever felt cheated?” Well, people will feel very cheated when the full extent of Russia’s involvement, of foreign money involvement, of the Mercers, of Cambridge Analytica and the whole ghastly business of the corruption of that first referendum will come to light. Then people will seriously feel that there was a plot against their democracy.

I am therefore going to vote down this withdrawal agreement and hope that our colleagues in the other place will receive resounding encouragement from all of us in this House to say that there should certainly be no question of no deal, but also of no withdrawal agreement as it is currently being presented.

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I respectfully draw your attention to the advisory time limit. Mission overrun is with us again.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

Nothing was said about two previous speakers, who spoke for far longer than I did from the Conservative Benches.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I hear the noble Baroness, and I was just about to expand on what the problem is. I know that it is frustrating for noble Lords, but at the heart of what she and others want to achieve are the negotiations. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, I was going to say that a number of the important issues she raises are directly related to our ability, having left the EU, to continue with reciprocal regimes if that is what we can negotiate. That is what we would obviously very much like to do. I have to disappoint noble Lords who are looking for more specific comment at this time because I simply cannot provide that.

The protections to which I was referring and the access to the regime established under the directive, or something like it, and my reference to appropriate steps and legislation being brought forward to implement these at that time, is what we can—and I very much hope we can—negotiate. That will comprise the protections for protected persons. We will, of course, consider all that at that point. But this Bill cannot pre-empt our negotiations on these matters. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, will empathise with that position, and understand the difficulty confronting the Government in relation to the Bill and will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Regarding Amendments 67 and 69, also in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, the Government are taking forward a range of work to tackle violence against women and girls. If noble Lords will permit me, I will set out the Government’s position on current and future international co-operation on these issues. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, I feel that I have been chastised. I apologise because I can say that I read Hansard and endeavour to ensure that outstanding points are addressed. Why that did not happen in consequence of our Committee stage in relation to these matters, I do not know, but I certainly undertake to investigate and can only apologise for the noble Baroness’s request being met with silence.

I reassure noble Lords that ending violence against women and girls, and protecting and supporting victims, remains a key priority for the Government, and our cross-government Ending Violence Against Women and Girls strategy, as many noble Lords will know, is underpinned by increased funding of £100 million through to 2020. We have put in place a range of measures to tackle the issue, including: the criminalisation of forced marriage; two new stalking laws; and a new offence of domestic abuse covering controlling and coercive behaviour. We are very pleased with that progress; it is good progress to have made, but we know there is more to do. We do not dispute that. That is why we continue to build on this work, driving forward our Ending Violence Against Women and Girls agenda to further address these injustices. We have launched a public consultation to support our commitment to publish a landmark draft domestic abuse Bill, and we are supporting the introduction of a new civil stalking protection Bill to protect victims at the earliest possible stage.

This House will also be aware that we already have clear mechanisms for reporting on our progress, and we are already required to lay annual reports in Parliament on this issue in the context of the Council of Europe Convention on Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence—the Istanbul convention. The coalition Government signed that convention in 2012 and this Government have made absolutely clear our commitment to ratifying it. Many will be aware that the convention sets forth obligations on parties to take a co-ordinated, coherent and cross-border approach, and highlights the need for more effective international and regional co-operation.

This Government supported the Preventing and Combating Violence Against Women and Domestic Violence (Ratification of Convention) Act 2017 which again places a duty on the Government to provide annual reports to Parliament on progress towards ratification. The first of such reports was published on 1 November 2017, and sets out the steps which the Government and the UK’s devolved Administrations—they have an important role to play in all this—have taken to tackle violence against women and girls since signing the convention, and the remaining steps required as we progress toward ratification.

In addition, once the UK has ratified the convention, we will be required to provide updates to the Council of Europe on compliance. This will not only further stimulate international co-operation but enable international benchmarking in tackling all forms of violence against women and girls. That is very important. It may sound just like dull text, but the ability to measure ourselves against what others are doing is very valuable and can undoubtedly be a catalyst to make improvements or do better if we identify areas where we are not doing as well.

I hope that I have reassured the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, on this Government’s commitment to tackling violence against women and girls in all its forms, and that we are already bound by clear existing legislative requirements to update the House on our work in this area. In these circumstances, I hope that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

As always, the noble Baroness speaks very warm words, and I am sure the intentions are honourable. But I am concerned, as are others in this House, that this is one of those issues that will be of second order. This is always what happens to women’s issues, such as violence against women and the experience of women. It goes far down the agenda when it comes to the reality of something like trade and other serious matters. This is serious too, so it is regrettable that we are getting only warm words.

I know that the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have been great speakers on the subject of dealing with violence against women, so it is particularly disappointing that amendments being addressed to matters which they have made their own special concerns are being dealt with so dismissively. It is not taking the issue seriously enough, and it is serious. I had hoped that there would at least have been a promise to come back and put before the House something soon after leaving Europe to say how it was going, and what was happening on this front. That is a disappointment, I must say. I would have thought that it would have been possible before the end of this year, and before we get to the actual crunch time, that the Minister would call a meeting of interested parties to consider where we are now, and what the way forward is looking like, so that we could have a clearer sense of that. The women in this country might feel very disappointed if this is not dealt with in a negotiated outcome.

I will not press the amendments just now, and I do not intend tabling them again before the House, but I want to say forcefully that I hope and expect to hear word from the Minister before the end of the year indicating that there will be a meeting for us to gather together those who are concerned about these issues, to consider what is being presented as the way forward and to see whether that is adequate.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I must say that I listened to both noble Baronesses with great care.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

My Lords, I will of course withdraw my amendment. I was rather disappointed not to have more from the Minister. I pay tribute to her. She is one of the most gracious and charming Ministers in this House, and that is why she is so popular with us all. I know that she, too, is a lawyer, and I remember how ferocious she could be in the Scottish Parliament. So I want her to commit to chewing the ankles of the negotiators to make sure that these issues do not fall off the agenda. The point of these amendments is that too often women’s issues are seen as second-order issues and not what the central negotiations are about—namely, having a good trade deal in the future.

I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for using the word “reciprocity”. Mutual recognition does not mean the same as reciprocity. We are concerned about enforcement: having the kind of collaborative arrangement whereby we can be sure that police forces and law enforcement agencies in other parts of Europe will act alongside our own agencies to protect women and girls who are facing violence. Those arrangements have been hard in the making, over many decades. We are not asking very much—just that this remains on the agenda and that there is reporting back to Parliament. Even with the good will of a Prime Minister who has been good on women’s issues and people like the Minister herself, I am concerned that this might end up forgotten about until it is too late. That is why I wanted to hear what the Government had to say.

Secondly, we have not really heard about the money. There is going to be a huge funding gap and organisations dealing with this really tough stuff are living in a state of anxiety about what is going to take place as of March next year. I think we might revisit this issue—but, at this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Genocide

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his question. North Korea is a secretive regime that is difficult to access in terms of information. In principle, the International Criminal Court could be an appropriate forum to hold North Korea to account for its behaviour, but the International Criminal Court can take action only when a war crime or crime against humanity is suspected to have been committed in or by a country which is party to the Rome statute or when the situation is referred to it by the United Nations Security Council. North Korea is not a party to the Rome statute and, as we have seen with Syria, it can be difficult to achieve such a referral when a country is not a signatory to the ICC. The right reverend Prelate may rest assured that the United Kingdom Government, in conjunction with international partners, remains concerned about activities in North Korea and we shall use all endeavours available to us to continue to register these concerns.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

The matter being raised by my noble friend Lord Alton relates to the torture of women and others—Christians and Yazidis. Rather alarmingly, President Trump, in campaigning, said that he was in favour of torture, that there was nothing wrong with torture and that, as far as he was concerned, it worked. Have we in any way addressed his publicly expressed opinion on torture?

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Baroness will be aware of the United Kingdom Government’s attitude to torture. We are very robust about that. What other sovereign states choose to do is largely their affair. I am not aware of any specific exchange to which the noble Baroness alludes. I shall do some research, and if I discover any information I shall be in touch with her.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Baroness Goldie and Baroness Kennedy of Shaws

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

My Lords, I am aware that we have not heard from the Labour Benches at all in respect of this group of amendments and the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy, has her name attached to one of the amendments.

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

I am grateful to the Minister and I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, will not mind my stepping in here. I have my name attached to Amendment 31, but I really support Amendment 17 as it has been described by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. As an advocate, I would always follow the indications given by a judge such as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, whose advice is very useful, given that he is by and large in sympathy with what is being sought here.

I remind the House of a question that was asked previously by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill—I can see her sitting on the Cross Benches—on what happens if there is an agreement that is really a bad agreement, a bad deal, or what happens if there is no deal at all. We did not hear a proper answer to that question, and I think that it is one that we sought to answer in Amendment 31. I agree entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and—to spare his blushes—he did not make mention of the judgment in the Miller case, in which he was counsel. In that case—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said something about this on Second Reading—a very important matter of principle was involved. It was not just that the Supreme Court made the decision that Parliament’s approval was necessary for the triggering of Article 50. What was also dealt with there was the principle at the heart of this—the principle that when it comes to fundamentally changing law, or removing rights from our domestic law, Parliament has to be the place that authorises and approves such matters.