Deregulation Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I will be happy to clarify that. There seems to have been a slight muddle in that the last amendment I had on Clause 33 was meant to be degrouped, but instead only one was degrouped. I am therefore turning this into a slightly longer and wider field because I lost the opportunity to do that on the previous amendment, which was my original intention. I hope that your Lordships will understand that.

Everything is supposed to be perfect until you do it, then you find—well, I advise noble Lords to read it for themselves. It is from Monday 2 February, in the Evening Standard. There is another whole page on the other side about the woman behind the “unhotel revolution” and pseudo hotels—so it is quite a wide issue. It is interesting that the fraud teams are being brought in to look into the whole issue. I had a reply from the treasury officer when I asked him what of these lettings would be tax free. The answer was, “Nothing, except the right to sublet a room in your own house to a lodger for a sum of £4,000 and something—less than £5,000”. That would be the only free opportunity. It is very interesting that the Serious Fraud Office attended a meeting that we had in the House of Commons in January, partly on this issue but on property in general. There is such an opportunity for fraud that it will be very interesting to know who declares what, with no one able to check on anything at all as to who is in these places, with risks of terrorism and fraud or whatever else is going on. People tell me that they find it almost unbearable, the smell of drugs being smoked in the flat above them, because it becomes so intense to have 10 people in one room. Again, are there no restrictions on how many people can fit into one bedroom? I find it hard to believe that you can have 10 people—and this is in three different flats.

I could go on and on, but I do not intend to, because it is late and the House has had a very busy time, with more to follow. I hope that the Minister will be a bit more open about things, as I am very dissatisfied that Questions for a Written Answer have simply not been replied to. I beg to move.

[Baroness Hanham (Con)]

My Lords, with my noble friend Lord Tope, I have three amendments down on this matter. To start with, I point out to the House that this is a very small clause with a very large impact. It consists of six subsections, four of which require regulations. As my noble friend said, not only have we not seen any sight of these regulations but, apart from the Written Ministerial Statement that appeared on Monday, we have no clue what direction the Government take on this, other than that it is a complete liberalisation of the situation as it stands.

My noble friend Lady Gardner laid out in her usual elegant way some of problems with the legislation before us. We have a slightly different view on the emphasis to be placed on this, but we are all agreed—my noble friend Lord Tope, myself, my noble friend Lady Gardner and the local authorities—that this cannot just be allowed to rip. Local authorities have not paid any attention to people letting out their homes for short times. It has been illegal ever since the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act came in in the 1970s but, by and large, there has been a very sensible attitude taken about this—that if it is your home and you can get money in for a fortnight or so, it will not be a matter that a local authority will bother itself with. However, once it is acknowledged or admitted that the situation has been happening but that it is against the law and always has been, somebody does something about it.

London is different from everywhere else. Although the Written Ministerial Statement says in a rather patronising way that these measures, whatever they are going to be, will draw London into the 21st century, we should all recognise that London has actually been living in the 21st century since the 20th century—or halfway through it. We live with a great deal of problems, not only those which my noble friend described about people who come to live in a property for a short time and cause trouble. Another problem is that a lot of the housing now being built is investment property for rent and, unless there are some controls on who can let out accommodation on a holiday let, all hell will be let loose and there will be rentals all over London taking place in an entirely illegal way.

The laws have up to now been broken and there are now companies, some of which my noble friend mentioned, which, unwittingly or not, have enabled people to do that. But a business is building around all this, and there can no longer be any suggestion that this is just people having a one-off whim to go on holiday for a fortnight in New York or whatever and to earn a bit of money on the way. That is not the reality. The reality is that agencies are already set up to deal with people who want to let their houses short term. Some of them will be very good and some will already have measures in place to let houses in a way that means that they are properly managed, they are cleaned up afterwards, they are looked after and their tenants do not cause problems—and there is some security aspect about who those tenants are. However, let us not delude ourselves that that is what will happen. As the business builds, more and more businesses will be built around it. Unless there is some regulation as to what is and is not allowed, we can say goodbye to quite a lot of accommodation that we are pleased to describe as permanent accommodation at the moment.

My amendments do three things. One says that there must be at the very least a fine-touch registration system with the local authority. It can be done quite easily and uniformly across London, with a website—and I have spoken about the royal borough, to which my noble friend has already referred. It can be done securely on a website. What can be discussed subsequently is whether people have to register before they go away or whether they have to register annually and say that they may be going away and letting their property under those circumstances. It requires some indication as to how many days they will be able to do that for, and the Written Ministerial Statement suggests that it should be 90. I do not know about you, but I am jolly lucky to get 90 days’ holiday a year. It seems to be quite a lot—and I think that most families would find 90 days quite a lot to go away. There will have to be a balance between 30 days, which I think has been promoted, although it is very hard to know as we do not have any regulations before us, and the 90 days being proposed by the Government.

There must be some way in which the local authority knows that the property may be let by the permanent owner, and it must have some idea of how long they will be entitled to do that—and for a very good reason. If the local authority gets complaints about that property, it is very helpful for it to know, for enforcement action to be taken, that it is being let by the owner. There are plenty of examples. My noble friend could give spiels of examples of where a property has been abused and people’s lives have been made a misery by lettings such as this and longer term. That would bring the planning authority back into the situation. At the moment, it has been completely chucked out. The provision in the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act goes and is amended with a few regulations that we do not know about and have not seen.

There is what I hope is an unwitting tendency at the moment to keep downgrading London. A later clause in the Bill on waste amends the London Local Authorities Act and this clause amends the Greater London Council (General Powers) Act. London is always going to be different and will always have different pressures and requirements. If every time local authority legislation goes through some of the measures get thrown out, that is not at all helpful or supportive. I think we would all hope that this clause would go away—at least until we have had an opportunity to sort out what the regulations are going to be, and how much regulation, even if it is light-touch regulation, we can put back in. My amendments try to achieve that. It is essential that the Government take note of the concern on this subject and do not try to pretend that London is some doolally maiden of two centuries ago with no idea of how anything works. They must recognise that London is an exceptional place, with great pressure on it from all sorts of sources, such as development, investment and the general movement of people in and out of the city.

I believe that our amendments are proportionate. I apologise to my noble friend the Minister for the fact that it is me—as well as my noble friend Lady Gardner—who is leading the attack from behind him, but I beg the Government to go back and take note of the concerns of London Councils. I should have declared my position as a co-vice-president of London Councils. It represents every local authority in London and it is absolutely against all these provisions.

Redress Schemes for Lettings Agency Work and Property Management Work (Approval and Designation of Schemes) (England) Order 2013

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 26th November 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, I find this an interesting order. I read the Explanatory Memorandum, but nothing really explains anything very clearly. I ask the Minister to confirm that this is just a sort of preliminary paper and that we will have to await the next step before we know what on earth it is about, because so much here is unclear. My personal interest is declared in the register of interests. I have leasehold property, which I let.

Nowhere does the order bring out the importance of transparency and how much we want to see that. Paragraph 7.14 of the Explanatory Memorandum states that the order,

“requires individuals responsible for running approved schemes … to provide such information on the operation of the scheme as the Secretary of State may reasonably require”.

However, I am not concerned about what the Secretary of State wants to know; I am more concerned about all the millions of people in leasehold properties who want to know what this is all about. Unless we have complete transparency, a lot of redress will be demanded by people, as they will all find it unsatisfactory that they never get straight answers to anything. I am speaking wildly and widely: this generalisation may catch people who are 100% reliable as managing agents, but there are far too many who are not. That is why we want this scheme to work and to work well.

Paragraph 7.12 says that there will be,

“publication of an annual report”.

I am not clear about who will make that annual report, and I should like to know what that is about. Is it is a report by the ombudsman or by each person who deals with the schemes? It is clear that there could be more than one scheme. Multiple schemes could be approved by the Government. It is not clear what exactly you have to do in order to be approved because, again, everything is shrouded in those wonderful words that now enable the Secretary of State to do pretty well anything. Therefore, until we see the next stage, we will not know what it is really talking about.

If there are, say, four approved schemes, will we have four annual reports, or will the Government or the ombudsman produce one report? I am mystified by the reporting process. Reporting is interesting and satisfactory up to a certain point, but what people really want is action. They want to know where they stand, and it is only fair and right that they should. There are currently a lot of cowboy practices, whereby some invisible person collects insurance from all the leaseholders, who find that they are paying a grossly inflated amount because someone is raking off money in the background. There are many points such as that which we need to look into.

It might be that we will need to have some clear definition of which parts of a building will be the responsibility of a communal system and in which parts the owners of individual flats will be responsible for work themselves. Regarding knowing what the responsibilities are, it is no answer to say “Well, it will all be in the terms of the lease”, because a lot of those leases are pretty woolly. No one is quite sure what happens with them.

That takes me to the point that any of your Lordships who read your Sunday paper must have seen: the story of this man named Jackson, who has just lost his flat. He went to the leasehold valuation tribunal but was foolish because he should have paid the £300 which was the original dispute, as far as I can see, and then gone to the tribunal. He ended up going to the tribunal when the maximum that he would have to pay was £500. Your Lordships will all have heard before, and I know that it is on record in Hansard, that I participated in Committee when the Bill was passed in 1996 that set a maximum of £500 that would be payable by any applicant. Now the whole tribunal system has changed, and however bad and expensive it has been, that is nothing to what it will be in future.

A lot of articles now are asking whether anyone will be able to afford to go to the leasehold valuation tribunal any more, even to go into the first stage. It was always acknowledged that if it went on appeal up to the second tier of the Lands Tribunal, that was where people who had big money would be at an advantage. No one ever foresaw the point where even if you were only liable for that £500 maximum, the other party could bring against you QCs and enormously expensive people who would charge the earth and then you, as a leaseholder, would find that it was billed back to you. The bill was not being taken on by the head lessee or the freeholder but came back on the person who had the cause for complaint. Will the redress schemes set out here cover that sort of issue, or will the situation be simply as it was for people such as that man?

This is exactly what happened to him. It started off as a minor dispute and he thought that he would be paying just £500. Eventually, after it had moved on, his legal bill was £76,000. I presume that everyone else in the block of flats had a share of that bill, too. He waited for the work to happen. A new company took over; again, that is rather typical of what happens. Indeed, I have had what I describe as wonderful whitewash letters saying, “We have been bad in the past but we are angels now. Everything is going to be all right and no one will have any cause for worry at all”.

Interestingly, at the meeting we had at the department, the person who is now running it was there. She claims to have had a whitewash and was very much in favour of the redress scheme. Perhaps the companies are reformed but we must wait and see. The problem is where it may end up. This man received bills to meet all these charges for three years, but no work was done in that time. That is very unsatisfactory and I feel very sympathetic towards him. For anyone to think that they are going into a minor thing, designed for ordinary people, only to find instead that they lose their home over it is a tragic situation.

I therefore have great hopes for this redress scheme, but we have an enormous number of problems to look at. When I look at the document in front of us, for example, there is nothing set out yet in Article 3(1). It states only:

“An application to the Secretary of State for approval of a redress scheme must … (a) be made in such a manner as the Secretary of State may determine; and (b) be accompanied by such information as the Secretary of State may require”.

There is nothing there to tell you what you would actually get out of it at all. This may be a formality but it is very important. Whatever we do on the matter, this is just the first step, and we have such a long way to go to make life fair for people in these properties.

These are all technicalities, and everything has taken a long time. Was it not in the summer that we passed this amendment? Now we are pretty well at the end of the year and this is the first bit we have—this draft statutory instrument, which does not even look as if it goes very far.

I am concerned about arbitration. I spoke here when the issue of changing the whole tribunal system came up before. That is a retrograde step. The tribunals were intended to be handled so that any ordinary person could go to them. The way the system has changed now has taken us right back to the battles we fought in 1996 against all these prohibitive charges. It will be very worrying for many people who now will not dare to complain about things. Unless the redress scheme is good, well thought through, carefully planned and honestly implemented with transparency, I worry about what the future will hold.

Of course, I am a great believer—as I am sure everyone knows—in commonhold, the system we have in Australia. There, no one is dependent on an intermediate landlord and you all share the rights to your own property. Here, the law demands that if you want to change to that system, you need 100% of the leaseholders of the block of flats to agree. Everyone knows that all you need is one crooked landlord willing to pay someone to be the 1% that will not pass something and that will never happen. The Government should—and I believe will in future—look at changing that law so that it could be either a simple majority or a possible one. There are people living overseas, not resident in the place and not even knowing what is going on or caring—sometimes they have so much money it does not matter to them. Unless we can really change this and make it fair, it will remain a great injustice that people living in a place will find that they do not have the rights and control to which they should be entitled. I have said more than enough and am sorry to burden the Committee with even more on this issue.

[Baroness Hanham (Con)]

My Lords, I took an interest in this matter a little while ago when we considered it. I have a couple of questions as a result of this order coming forward. I agree with my noble friend Lady Gardner that it seems terribly short on detail as to implementation. I am not much reassured by the fact that I am not sure whether what I have here is an Explanatory Note or just guidance on how the scheme will be carried out. I am not very reassured by the idea that there will have to be a board for each of these schemes. It is not at all clear of whom such a board would be made up. The board is there to appoint the scheme administrator, but there is nothing else about what the board is meant to do. The only thing it says is that if you are under a complaint investigation you can sit on this board although you cannot particularly make up the majority of it.

My noble friend Lady Gardner, who has been absolutely remorseless in getting all this right, pointed out that it is the detail of the implementation that will matter. There is nothing very much about the scheme administrator except that he can be appointed for three years. The next thing that will happen is that we will talk about the ombudsman. There is nothing in between to suggest that the scheme administrator and the ombudsman will be different, or whether the ombudsman will fit into how the scheme will run. After all, the ombudsman probably will be one of the most important aspects of it.

Another quite trivial thing comes up later on. There is an awful confusion between “consumers” and “clients”. It would be helpful if we could decide which word will be used. I will give the example:

“Taking special care when dealing with consumers who might be disadvantaged”.

It might be clients who are disadvantaged. Anywhere else, all the way down, the text is about responding to “clients” in an appropriate time. Everything else is about clients. In the interests of clarity, let us decide who it is we are talking about.

There needs to be much more explanation of how many schemes are likely to be approved and how many would be too many. You might get 25, all of them absolutely perfect, but might actually need to have not more than about four or five because that is how they are made up. There must be much more clarity about who the ombudsman is and how the access to the ombudsman will work through this scheme.

Other than that, even though there are some holes and flaws and things that need to be taken further, this has moved at astonishing speed, by governmental standards, and I am grateful for that because it is long-overdue legislation.

Council Tax

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, council tax arrears for 2012-13 have gone down. The new support scheme that started in April 2013 has barely had an opportunity to get off the ground but clearly this is something that will be kept under review. However, as I said, if local authorities had done what we gave them the opportunity to do and taken the grant, they would not have to ask people to pay council tax that they could not perhaps afford.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

What is the position if you are in arrears but have a spare room? What is being done by councils to encourage such people to let their spare room? Our council is setting up a way for anyone to discover where those rooms are. I keep meeting people who are being put out of where they are and are dying to rent a room but cannot find any of these council people with a spare room which I would have thought would suit both parties to agree that they can occupy.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, if the noble Baroness is referring to the extra rooms associated with the welfare reforms, I am sure there will be opportunities for local people who are affected by those to see whether they can take on a lodger as long as their subletting arrangements are sufficient for the local council.

Homelessness

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 3rd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the Government are already working across the country with individual authorities, providing access to funding and policies that enable local authorities to make the decisions they need to make and which we have encouraged. We have changed the law to ensure that local authorities can use the private rented sector for people who are homeless or in danger of homelessness. Local authorities need to make decisions on the amount of housing and money they need to support homelessness and on their policies for dealing with homelessness. The Government are fully aware that there are discrepancies across the country and we are working with local authorities to try to help with that.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, does the Minister realise that many of these homeless people are dealt with by charities, rather than by local authorities? They are very difficult for anyone to manage. When I was a chairman of social services, we had homeless shelters where people used to smoke so often that you had a permanent fire hazard in the building. People who elect to sleep on the street often do not wish to be under any authority that would regulate them. What is the Government’s estimate of the proportion of homeless people dealt with by charities, as opposed to local authorities?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I cannot give the noble Baroness the exact proportion but, yes, a number of charities such as Centrepoint and St Mungo’s in London provide an extraordinarily important service. The Passage at Westminster Cathedral and similar organisations across the country play an enormous part in supporting and helping homeless people. The No Second Night Out initiative now takes place not only in London but across the country. It ensures that what my noble friend suggests happens does not happen. People are not on the streets for longer than one night. They are taken off and given advice, help and support to enable them to move back into proper accommodation.

Homelessness: Rough Sleepers

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 27th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

As the Poles have a marvellous reputation for being hard working, I am surprised that this issue is related particularly to Polish people. Does the Minister agree that a good many shelters are provided for the homeless in London, even in central London? I have been involved with some myself through charity. Does the Minister think that one of the big problems with a lot of homeless sleepers is their additional problems, and that it is not just about being short of money? Some have drug or alcohol problems, or some illness. Does she not think it important that these things should be available to people so that they can be dealt with in rehabilitation, even here, before they go back to their own countries?

[Baroness Hanham]

Yes, my noble friend raises an interesting point because a number of people who sleep rough have additional problems, such as mental health or alcohol problems. It is very important that when they are being helped to reconnect, those services are reconnected as well. There are organisations that do that, and if UK nationals are involved we ensure that they receive the services that they need.

Housing: Rural Areas

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 4th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

What is the position regarding amenities such as a centre to help disabled people or handicapped children, which could be built in conjunction and is very necessary for some communities? The noble Baroness mentioned that communities will be able to put housing on green-belt land. Could that same permission be given for such adjuncts, which are an important part of any housing scheme?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, that would be for local decision, if the local authority believed that that was an appropriate use of land. Indeed, such amenities could be included in the neighbourhood plan. The more of those we can get up and running, the better. These sorts of facilities which are vital, as the noble Baroness said, can be included in those plans. I readily accept that communities need and want these essential facilities.

Housing: New Homes Bonus

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

I cannot say specifically for a new home, but if new homes were being provided for Travellers, the new homes bonus would be paid. To the specific question about numbers, I will have to write to the noble Baroness.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Can the Minister assure me that all councils are well informed of the existence of this bonus and understand what they have to do to get it?

Housing: New Homes

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 8th January 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, nobody will disagree that we need more housing. I have said that many times in this Chamber. Everybody knows that we have an underhousing situation in this country for our population. Therefore, there is great pressure from my department to ensure that housing targets are built up. However, it is for local authorities to decide where that housing goes and how much they need in their local area. A great number of houses are in the pipeline, due to be built.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that she is willing to support the approval of the financial scheme of guarantee to help small builders who desperately need the work and who could provide many homes for the people who are so badly in need of them?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the encouragement for small businesses is there. Our position is already to help small businesses. Of course, some small businesses, although not necessarily building a big number of houses, are making a major contribution.

Housing: Leaseholder Deposit Protection

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 23rd July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. In doing so, I state that my interest is on the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, the law already provides protection for service charges. They are deemed to be held in trust. The law also provides leaseholders with a number of rights to aid transparency over service charges. These include rights to be consulted, to ask for a summary of service charges, and to see supporting documentation. The Government therefore have no plans for additional regulation of leasehold service charges.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is the Minister aware of the case reported last month of the managing agent who pleaded guilty to stealing £122,000 from leaseholder funds? Does she not think that the nearly 3 million leaseholders are entitled to the protection called for by the voluntary accreditation bodies, Leasehold Knowledge Partnership and the Association of Residential Managing Agents, and supported by the British Property Federation? Can she tell me what parliamentary procedures would be required to introduce regulation?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for drawing to my attention the article about the offence to which she referred. As it is a matter of court action, I do not think there is anything I can say. The article is not sufficiently detailed to know exactly where the money came from so I do not think I can comment any further on that.

My noble friend will know that if you are going to undertake legislation then before doing so, you must undertake consultation, draw up plans and take the process through, not only the regulators but also the leaseholders and those who are carrying out the voluntary regulation at the moment. You must then find legislative time to deal with it. We do not believe that it is necessary at this stage to undertake any of that.

Disability: Black and Minority-ethnic Disabled People

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Baroness knows, the Government are developing the cross-government disability strategy at the moment. It is cross-government, so the answer to her question about whether all departments will be involved is clearly yes. As to when the disability action strategy will be available, there is no date for publication yet as consultations are still going on. They include people from black and minority-ethnic groups.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Do other factors come into this? Admittedly, the culture of black and ethnic minorities often means that people care for their own, perhaps better than we do and perhaps putting us to shame in that respect. Apart from that, does the Minister think that there is a lack of awareness? Are these people applying for help, or are they not aware that they need to or could apply for help?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the report identifies that quite often they do not apply for help. In part, that is because they are not known to the authorities. A large way of getting around that is for local government or health authorities to ensure that people are aware of the local groups that reflect black and minority-ethnic requirements, and can thereby find out what their needs are. However, I accept what my noble friend says: that in many of these groups there is a family commitment to look after their own and not to seek statutory help.

Housing: Managing Agents

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 17th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and declare my interest as a leaseholder.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, there are already two codes of practice in force that can be used in evidence in a court or tribunal: the Service Charge Residential Management Code, which is published by the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors, and Private Retirement Housing: Code of Practice, which is published by the Association of Retirement Housing Managers. The Government recognise that problems caused by the actions of managing agents can cause leaseholders real inconvenience and distress. Landlords and managing agents must obey the law and should act in a socially responsible manner. While we have no plans for a wide-ranging review of leasehold law, we are keeping a close watching brief and will not rule out making changes.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Can the Minister tell me what rights leaseholders have to be assured that managing agents carry out regular assessments of property condition and arrange necessary repairs for works in blocks of flats? Are the agents responsible for ensuring that any work done is carried out to a satisfactory standard?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, managing agents are employed by the freeholders, although leaseholders have rights as to what they are being charged for and the work that is being done. We believe that any managing agent acting on behalf of a landlord owes a duty of care to leaseholders. Reasonable steps should be taken to ensure that all work is done properly and safely. Leaseholders of course have a right to challenge the management of their blocks and the people who are doing it through the leasehold valuation tribunal.

Allotments

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the final form of the national planning policy framework is still being realised. Of course, the Localism Act contains a number of provisions that would help local communities to do precisely what the noble Baroness has suggested. There is a community right to challenge, so voluntary and community bodies can challenge on bits of land to suggest that they take them over. There are the neighbourhood planning provisions, where local neighbourhoods can come together and identify land for use that they think is sensible, and allotments might come under that. There is also the community right to buy, where again local communities can identify land that they consider to be an asset and if it comes up for sale they are in a position to make a bid for it.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Will the Minister tell me whether there are many problems such as the one in my village, where the allotment holders were encouraged to grow everything without any water supply? They did so successfully for many years. However, as we have had a few very dry years it has not been possible recently. Now they want to put in a water supply, and apparently, in order to make it practical for the allotment holders to fund the water supply, they need a long- term lease on the property, which I believe is owned partly by the local church. However, the lease is not the main issue, but rather a total disagreement about who should provide water to an allotment.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, again, the question put by the noble Baroness is quite localised, because I suspect that there are some allotments which are provided with water. That must be a matter for the local authority to which she refers, and I should think that the allotment holders would be in a very strong position to ensure that they received or found that water.

Housing: Landlord and Tenant Legislation

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 7th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and I declare a long-standing property interest, which is in the register.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham)]

My Lords, the Government have no plans to consolidate all landlord and tenant legislation. “Landlord and tenant legislation” covers social and private renting, plus residential leasehold. It also covers renting and leasing in the commercial sector. The features and requirements of each housing sector or tenure type are reflected in specific legislation. A wide range of housing regulations is now being looked at as part of the red tape challenge.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thank the Minister for that disappointing Answer. The problem is that as each statute replaces something in the previous one, it has reached the point where even legal practitioners have great difficulty following these laws. Does she not think that a consolidation Act would mean that it could get to a point where ordinary leaseholders and tenants might be able to check on their own duties and responsibilities, which would be worth while?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, consolidation Acts take an enormous time to put together. As I have already said, landlord and tenant law covers several Acts. We appreciate that leasehold law in particular can be complex and that people find it difficult to understand. That is why the department provides guidance for leaseholders and free advice and information, which can be sought from the Leasehold Advisory Service. Consolidating legislation, while helpful, requires considerable Civil Service and parliamentary time, so there needs to be a very significant benefit from it.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I must say at the outset that it was only because I became a Minister that I stopped being on the planning committee of my borough, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where we dealt with an enormous number of subterranean developments. My patience ran out when we had one that went down three floors. When I asked why it had to go so far down, they said that the person who owned the house wanted a high diving board.

I am not at all unsympathetic to this particular discussion. After my noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lady Gardner came to see me originally with some representatives from Kensington and Chelsea, and Westminster, I thought carefully about what we would do here. The fact is that this Bill will not solve the problems. There are too many elements to this to help by legislation. There is legislation all over the place that governs this. I was concerned to see what could be done within the legislation that is there at the moment and whether codes of practice, guidance and all the elements could be brought together and given to local authorities to help them. For that reason, I asked my noble friend Lord Jenkin and the people who came to see me to agree to be a small working party to discuss with officials the ideas that they had for amending this, with the officials bringing together what can already be done. Could we, through some discussion and feeling our way, find a solution that did not require primary legislation, or has this been going on for so long that it is well beyond that? We want something quick that guides local authorities in what they can and cannot do.

The local authorities that have to deal with this are becoming quite adroit, but the effect on people who live roundabout is absolutely atrocious. I know of one person who complained that a basement extension was being dug up on either side of his house and opposite it, too. Once basements are developed you cannot see them and they are all gone, but it is during this development process, which can take anything up to two years, when the trouble starts.

I hope that my noble friend Lord Jenkin will not bring back an amendment at Third Reading. We have an awful lot already and the Bill managers are becoming slightly anxious. I feel that we can resolve the problem more quickly than this. There are already endless Acts covering this. I am concerned that those Acts are not properly understood or implemented by local authorities. There are building and environmental regulations. Construction method statements are required. There are party wall implications, construction design and management regulations, the control of pollution Acts and the Party Wall etc. Act. As a result of the meeting that we had prior to this being brought up this time, we are already working with the Basement Information Centre to see about guidance on the construction of basements and how those could be developed to cover the issues we have raised. Defra is looking to prove an updated version of the British Standard so as to give it statutory force under the Control of Pollution Act. The Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors publishes guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said. I would accept, immediately with gratitude, his help with this. We already have a meeting tomorrow if the noble Lord is free, and we will take it into account.

The party wall issue is clearly another very major area, and the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, has pointed out the difficulties with bringing this into more legislation when there may be ways of making it clearer and more acceptable by guidance. We and the department are going to review the guidance on the Party Wall etc. Act so that it reflects matters better. The Health and Safety Executive is developing guidance for builders, and all the issues which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has raised will come under health and safety; they must do. We do not underestimate the disturbance and distress that poorly executed work on subterranean developments can cause.

I want the small group that we have now, working with our officials, to go through what has been picked up on now, what the legislation is, what guidance is needed and where local authorities need to be given a better helping hand with a code of conduct, and to see whether we can do this without having to go to primary legislation again. I think we can probably do this, and I would like to be given the opportunity to try. I cannot complete this between now and Third Reading, so I am going to have to rely on the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, perhaps not moving this at Third Reading, but with my commitment to try to see this through. I fully and totally understand the concerns around this. I am not surprised that it has provoked discussion to get it into the Bill. By the time we have had a consultation on legislation, if it is possible to have that, we are going to be way off down the line.

I will personally take a lead in this to see what can be done, what guidance can be provided and what extra clout can be given, one way or another, either through the Party Wall etc. Act or by strengthening the guidance. I would like an opportunity to be able to do that, but having said that I am very grateful to the noble Lords who have spoken. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, had to leave to chair another meeting, but his amendment was very much along the lines of the others moved in this debate.

I hope noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments. I hope to see all those noble Lords reasonably frequently for the next weeks while we try to sort this out. I look forward to seeing the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, as part of that.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I have listened with interest to the Minister’s reply, and I am sure we would all like to go along with whatever she says because she has clearly thought about it seriously. However, I do not think that it in any way answers the problems that people have.

The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, talked about unnecessary inconvenience, but that is not the big issue. Every bit of building work is always an extreme inconvenience for everyone else around it. In the street where my house is in London I have gone through eight years of all the office blocks being demolished and replaced with giant blocks of flats. It meant that the whole street was congested and you could not move. It was extremely inconvenient, but I do not expect compensation for that. We have to encourage development and any necessary construction. I am not so concerned about compensation for disturbance, but I am concerned about people who find themselves left with a hole in the ground beside them when the people who have dug it have gone bankrupt. It should be simple to set up some sort of insurance, and I would like to speak to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, whose views I greatly respect, because he said there might be complications with this. I thought that insurance was a pretty common feature in building. Most builders have insurance. We should discuss that at some further time.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I would like to ask a question about this amendment, which I am not entirely clear about. I have been told recently by people who have had court possession orders and eviction notices served on them that that does not really put them out of anything until the bailiffs come in. What is the position if the court grants a possession order but the bailiffs have not been instructed? I understand that there is usually quite a time lag between those two events and that the housing benefit comes through in that time, particularly when it has been delayed. How would that work in relation to those two different procedures?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I have all sorts of answers that were given in the letter, which I was absolutely satisfied covered everything that could possibly be raised. I am stuck on this position about the courts and will have to come back to noble Lords, because the response I have already given is that landlords must have the right to go for possession, particularly where there are rent arrears and particularly where those are long term. On the other hand, landlords are expected to use every possible means of supporting tenants to sustain their tenancies and to prevent unnecessary evictions. That should be a requirement on all social landlords within a revised tenancy standard. The expectation is that evictions should happen only as a very last resort.

There is a well established pre-action protocol on rent arrears and the data show a steady decline in evictions of housing association tenants in recent years. However, we believe that good practice in managing rent arrears should not exclude using mandatory grounds in limited circumstances—right at the end of the road when the landlord really had not been able to come to any satisfactory conclusion. Recent independent research suggests that mandatory grounds are used sparingly, in less than 5 per cent of total housing association evictions for rent arrears. That is not a very high percentage, and indicates that it is not being used as a blunt instrument and takes proper account of the particular circumstances of the case.

There are protocols and we expect landlords to abide by them. I do not think we want to remove the mandatory aspect of ground 8 from the legislation. Under the previous Government, a working group was convened to look at the issue in detail and it commissioned independent research through the Tenant Services Authority. However, there was absolutely no unanimity among external partners that abolishing ground 8 was necessary or desirable.

Having talked long enough, I have been able to get at least a partial reply to my ignorance about what happens in the courts. The grant of possession does not necessarily mean eviction. Landlords may need to apply to the court again for an eviction order and arrears could be resolved before that point, which should have been the situation in the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Palmer. If it is an arrear, time should be given for housing benefit to come through to prevent that eviction.

I think I understood the noble Lord to say that the courts felt that they had no alternative but to grant possession and to ensure eviction. I may have misunderstood him but I hope I have not. If that is the situation, I simply say again that no action should necessarily need to be taken immediately as a result of that court decision, particularly if it relates to money and it is felt that eviction is likely to come about. I am bound to say that in that scenario I would expect the landlords to have got to that situation before they apply for eviction, but there may be reasons why they have not.

We would resist removing ground 8, which leaves room for negotiation and should not have the effect of ensuring that tenants are automatically evicted as part of the court decision. If I have misunderstood anything that the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, has said, he is bound to let me know when he replies to the amendment. If necessary I will look at that position again, but I hope I have picked up the main points of his concerns. I very much hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, when I stood up last time I was remiss in not welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, to his full-time position on the Front Bench. He is very welcome indeed and I hope that he is going to enjoy it. He may not enjoy the start of it, though; I fully understand what he is saying on this amendment but I also think that a bit of flexibility within the provisions is required.

We do not think that it is necessary to legislate to prevent local authorities from ever disqualifying transferring tenants. There may be exceptional circumstances where, for example, tenants have not paid their rent or there is some problem associated with the transfer, but by and large, under practically all circumstances, we would expect transferring tenants to be transferred without trouble. The noble Lord mentioned downsizing to a smaller flat, moving from a bigger flat to a smaller one or moving because of work from one place to another. We would expect all those to go without any difficulty at all and without the local authority having to make any exceptions.

As I say, though, there might just be exceptions. The only one that I will give the noble Lord at the moment is that there might be rent arrears that need to be paid off before the tenants move. Flexibility for the local authority in those circumstances would be removed by this amendment. We are producing secondary legislation that will outline when local authorities can and cannot prevent people transferring. If there were any evidence that local authorities were disqualifying transferring tenants inappropriately, that would be covered by that secondary legislation, which will not be on hand immediately but is coming.

I believe that the provisions as currently drafted are correct and that the proposed provisions are unnecessary. I hope that the noble Lord will feel that he can withdraw his amendment.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Before the Minister sits down—

[Baroness Hanham]

I cannot do that on Report.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I thought we could do that on Report for a question. I asked the Clerk earlier. Perhaps that could be clarified.

If the local authority were adopting a flexible policy and happened to adopt the policy as set out in the amendment, could it do that in any case without it being in the Bill?

[Baroness Hanham]

The local authority has flexibility at present so it would be able to prevent the transfer. The wording will mean that it is fully understood that the transferring tenants will perhaps not be able to transfer under those circumstances.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I am slightly concerned about two different aspects. First, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made the point about places being unsafe. That concerns me greatly because I understood that the council had powers, if a property was unsafe, to demand that work be carried out. So that disturbs me.

The other point that worries me very much is the whole attitude of private landlords to housing benefit claimants. This is a serious problem that I had personal experience of this week when someone I know, who has been going to estate agents and finding properties that they could afford with their £250 a week, was told by estate agents and by landlords themselves, “Sorry, we won’t take anyone on housing benefit because if they don’t pay”—I know that there is talk of sending the payment directly to the landlord, which has both advantages and disadvantages—“or if there’s any doubt, we have to meet all the costs of the court and of getting possession of the property again”. If there were some way in which the council could help the private landlord by ensuring that if there were any need to reclaim the property they would not be faced with those extra costs, that might change attitudes. It is a serious concern if people with a property to let within the range of housing benefit are unwilling to take such tenants.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I understand that this is an important aspect for those who have moved the amendments.

I point out at the start that the noble Lord, Lord Best, made a powerful intervention over the welfare Bill and as a result—or, perhaps, we fully intended this anyway—the Department for Work and Pensions will carry out extensive research into the impact of the changes to the local housing allowance that are being introduced in 2011. That will go a long way towards dealing with the matters that are raised in this amendment. The department intends to monitor the impact of the changes on claimants, landlords and local authorities over a two-year period and will be publishing an interim report in 2012, with a final report due in 2013.

We do not want to trudge along this path twice. Not only should the report being carried out by the DWP address the impact of its changes but it will pick up some of the points that the noble Lord has made in his intervention today. I am not much wedded to having yet another report on what is virtually the same subject, although we might ensure that the report being produced by the DWP picks up on some of the points that have been made. I am not making any promises on that right now but I promise to raise the issue and see if we are at a stage where that could be done.

We believe that requiring the homelessness clauses to expire three years after commencement, which is what the noble Lord’s amendment is about, would undermine the intention of our reforms. Allowing people under the main homelessness duty to turn down offers of suitable accommodation in the private rented sector and wait for an offer of social housing would be unfair. I do not think that that point was raised particularly but I want to lay it down at the moment. The changes that we are making are part of the reforms to social housing and we need to ensure that all this is fair, not only to the people who are homeless but to those who are on the waiting list and looking for good, affordable housing. We need to ensure that we get the best from our 4 million socially rented homes.

Localism Bill

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

We had every intention of debating it and, as noble Lords will know, I complained about having to wait day after day in the hope of getting to this amendment. Yesterday it was quite clear that we were running out of time. This Bill is terribly important and it is important that we get to Report stage. It was because of the degree of importance that we decided to take action and seek an assurance from the Minister that we would be guaranteed sufficient time to debate it on Report. It will be debated then.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, just about everything that could be said has been said on this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, asked about gas extraction. I will have a letter written to him before the next stage so that he knows the situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

I too have heard these speeches although I have not been present in the Chamber. I wanted to comment on Amendment 173A, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best, relating to the suitability of accommodation. It would be terrific if we could do it. However, going back 40 years, when I had housing responsibility, we found that the only thing we could offer homeless people then was bed and breakfast. We ran out of central London bed-and-breakfast accommodation and people had to travel quite a lot further out. So although “suitable accommodation” is the ideal, I do not know how it can ever be realistically achieved. That is the worry about what the future might be for this.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, this is clearly a debate that needs a lot more time than we have got tonight. I have listened to some very moving and knowledgeable speeches on the amendments and I understand fully the points that people have been making. The trouble is the time constraints—the way these have been grouped in this large bunch makes it almost impossible for me to deal with all the many points that have been raised in the manner in which I would have wished to do so. As a result, I will probably be quite general in my comments, but if there are issues which I think need further application, and I have not dealt with them properly, I will look at those in Hansard and will try to make sure there is a response. I think my response will be dry—it is not meant to be and I do understand all the points that have been made. I know that my colleagues in the House of Commons have made some quite sympathetic statements and I am not going to undermine any of those. However, in the interests of time, at this stage, I am going to respond to the amendments briefly. I ask people to forgive me for not going into great detail on what they have said, since it is inevitable that I shall not be able to do so.

I shall start quickly with Amendments 171D, 172A, 173ZE, 173ZF, 171B, 171C and 173. We all understand that the people who face homelessness need suitable accommodation, but they do not always require social housing. Therefore, local authorities should have the flexibility to take case-by-case decisions. The changes in these amendments would undermine the intention of the proposed measures. This would be unfair to households on social housing waiting lists, who would have to wait longer to have their housing needs met. This is a balance that housing authorities have to make all the time. It would be unfair to the taxpayer who would have to fund expensive temporary accommodation that is often completely unsatisfactory, as noble Lords know. By housing people in social housing who might manage in the private rented sector, we would stop somebody who needs social housing, probably on a lifetime tenancy, from getting it.

Our reforms strike a sensible balance between the additional safeguards for homeless households offered in the private rented sector accommodation, ending the main duty, and fairness to other households in need. It is not practical to expect private landlords to be prepared to offer tenancies for an initial fixed term of more than 12 months to tenants they do not know, although it will be possible and very probable that local authorities will want and need to negotiate longer tenancies where they can, if 12 months does not prove to be sufficient time.

I turn to Amendments 172, 173A, 173AA, 171D and 172A, and apologise for not attributing them to the relevant noble Lords. Existing safeguards will apply before the duty can be brought to an end with a private rented sector offer. The authority must be satisfied that the accommodation is suitable for the applicant and his or her household. In considering suitability, authorities must by law consider whether a specific property is suitable for the applicant and their household's individual needs. This includes considering whether the accommodation is affordable for the applicant, as well as its size, condition, accessibility and location. A lot has to be taken into account before the offer is made. On affordability, the local authority must by law consider the applicant's financial resources and the total cost of accommodation in determining whether the accommodation is suitable.

Statutory guidance, to which local authorities must have regard by law, sets out the factors on location and standards that should be taken into account. It also states that housing authorities should consider that a property would not be affordable if a claimant's residual income after rent and associated costs would be less than the level of means-tested benefit. Tying down criteria in legislation would restrict the ability of the local authority to make decisions on what is reasonable affordability, balanced against the availability of properties.

I understand the concerns about the issue of physical standards. I have laid a Statement in the House Library confirming that we are prepared to use existing order-making powers and setting out the factors that could be included in such an order. In doing so, we will work closely with organisations such as Shelter and Crisis to make sure that that is all workable.

Amendments 173ZZD, 173ZBA, 173ZA, 173ZB, 173ZD 173ZC and 173AB would place specific requirements on local authorities to provide advice and assistance and to collect data. This is too bureaucratic and I will resist the amendments for that reason.

Big Society: Britain in Bloom

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. This is a long-standing scheme. At the present time, when lots of people face major difficulties, it is particularly important for people to feel a sense of achievement in what they are doing and a sense of community. Local authorities should be asked or encouraged to help this to continue. As I understand it, they are not asked to contribute financially. Can the Minister comment on that?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, as I understand it, the Royal Horticultural Society is very generous in supporting local authorities and people within them who want to take part in the competition. I have absolutely no doubt that all noble Lords would agree that the work that is done and what is produced as a result of the competition makes London and local authorities look much better. I have no difficulty at all in agreeing with the noble Baroness or in again congratulating the Royal Horticultural Society on what it does in this initiative.

Allotments

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Monday 18th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, this Question is about allotments, not housing benefit. I shall resist the temptation of being drawn into the whole question of housing benefit and simply say that the rules governing allotments are in the hands of local government, which presumably pays attention to them when considering these matters.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that schools in inner London, and particularly in Battersea, where I went to see a very underprivileged school last week, have developed the equivalent of allotment gardens? That has proved immensely beneficial to underprivileged children, who before had no inspiration at all and now have not only learnt to produce food but think that they would like to become chefs.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am very well aware of what the noble Baroness refers to. I refer also to what happens within my own local authority, which has developed raised gardens on land such as old tennis courts to be used for community gardens that will also be available for children.

Housing

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Thursday 8th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, the HCA, like every other aspect of public authorities, has been affected by the disastrous financial position in which we have been left. Like everyone else, it has to take its reduction. Of course, we are going to try to support affordable housing as much as we can. The House will know that under the last Government only 29,000 affordable houses were built each year, which is well below the figure of 39,000 under the previous Conservative Government. We will do as much as we can to support affordable housing, including when private developers get planning permissions.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

My Lords, I declare an interest as I have always let property. Is the Minister aware that there is no encouragement for residential landlords who would perhaps buy and do up some of these very rundown properties and provide necessary accommodation? Does the scheme still work whereby local councils work with private landlords to provide such accommodation? That would be a way in which to make up for the shortfall in what is being built.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, local authorities work with private landlords in a number of ways. Some help to put people who are homeless into the private sector, and others work on an “empty homes” basis. I do not think there is any thought of changing any of that. Certainly, the private sector provides a valuable service in housing people, although there must be some restrictions on the amount of rent that people pay.

Elected Mayors

Debate between Baroness Gardner of Parkes and Baroness Hanham

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hanham]

Again, I thank the noble Lord for his kind remarks. No, I do not think that what he said is true. Local authorities will find that they have greater flexibility and power once localism is introduced. We have already indicated that there will be a freeze on council tax for two years. That is something that local authorities have known they would have to implement for some time. I do not accept that there is more central control. There could hardly be more central control than there was under the previous Government, and we certainly expect to make it less.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Does my noble friend remember that health control for the whole of London by the regional assembly has been considered for many years, going back even to LCC days? Certainly, it was greatly considered in GLC days. Does she not think that it is more suitable for this regional authority to have an interest in public health but not necessarily for it to be running the health service, which is quite capable of running itself in London?

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, I am not sure whether any decision has been made on running health services in London. That is in any case beyond me and in the hands of another Minister.