Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Main Page: Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Conservative - Life peer)Housing and Planning Bill
Baroness Gardner of Parkes Excerpts
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said, I discussed this at Second Reading and his amendments here are a great improvement on what I have commented on before, but there are still one or two things that certainly need to be ironed out before Report.
In his first amendment, Amendment 101BB, there is no mention anywhere—unless he is planning to put in a code of practice—that there should be no weekend work in these places. Without doubt people require a weekend to recover from a heavy week’s work. Many areas allow work only from 7 am to 1 pm on a Saturday, but even that should not be permitted, as it will really cut into your one quiet time of the week.
On another important point—and having looked at every detail of these words I am not sure whether I have missed the point—there should be no work permitted before the granting of permission. Often, neighbours where I lived told me that they woke up to find someone breaking through their wall. That is not something that you would want or expect.
I have one real objection to the noble Lord’s second amendment, Amendment 101BC. That is to the word “presumption” against subterranean development. I do not like a presumption about anything. Earlier the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, commented on whether a family felt that it needed something more, which was a very subjective assessment. Fortunately he has now removed this and made it much more objective. That is good. But I do not like “presumption” and do not want to see it. It is far better for things to be either in law or not in law, but just to be presuming that something is there worries me.
“Notice to adjoining owners” in Amendment 101BD is interesting, but I move on to Amendment 101BE. That is about the surveyors holding a sum. I thoroughly approve of that. When work went on behind me before I moved house that is exactly what happened. In fact, there was no need whatever to draw on the amount, because the work all went quite well, but it is important that it does go well; the security of having a deposit held is important.
I recall cases, one in Montpelier Square and another in St John’s Wood, where people went bankrupt, leaving a giant hole in the ground, which filled with water and turned into a disastrous pool under the house. Because the people had gone bankrupt, no one ended up with any liability for it at all. It is very important to determine a sum to be held. I was surprised at the amount required to be held, for what was only a single basement going in near me, but it was right that it was a large amount, because it should relate to the area and the cost of the works that would have to be done to make the place liveable again.
I do not know whether more could be done to deal with bankruptcy cases, to help people to get out of that hole, but that could be looked at.
Lord Dubs
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate. I know that there are others who, because of the timing this morning, were probably not aware we were doing this now and would otherwise have been here. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, for what she said and I very much agree with her. Amendment 101BH suggests a schedule of provisions for a local authority code of practice, in which one of the issues is,
“the hours of construction and excavation, and ... particularly noisy types of construction and excavation”.
That could deal with both the time of starting and weekend working, although it may need strengthening. I agree entirely with the principles that she put forward about weekends and the starting time. I think she had a third point, but I am not quite sure what it was. I am sorry.
Lord Dubs
Yes, presumption. Frankly, if the Minister were to accept the principle, I would be happy to drop the word “presumption”. I put it in because of the sheer frustration felt by people who approached me saying, “For heaven’s sake, just stop all these things”. Most people would like that presumption, but if it made for better law, the word would not have to be there. I think local authorities would understand what they could do.
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Horam, for the examples that he has given me, and to the noble Lord, Lord True, with whom I have had a discussion on this. He speaks with the authority of being leader of an important London borough. If he feels that his powers are insufficient to deal with the problem, I have to say, with due respect to what the Minister said, that we have to listen to local authority leaders. They are the ones in the firing line and who want to do best for the people in their community. That is what they are elected for. I mentioned earlier that I bumped into the leader of Camden Council, who said the same thing. She said that, despite the powers that the Minister said local authorities have, there are not enough: they need more powers to deal with these things. I asked whether I could quote her and she said yes. That conversation took place at about 10 am this morning, so it is hot off the press.
To deal with the comments that the Minister made, clearly her view is that powers already exist. Frankly, they do not. She said that local authorities could prepare codes. Yes, they can, but they are not enforceable. The point of the codes in my amendment is that they are enforceable. Local authorities can have these codes, but they cannot make them happen. I do not want to get into a long debate on the Party Wall etc. Act. All the advice that I have had is that it is insufficient for this purpose. It does some good things, but it does not deal with all the problems I described. I have to act on the advice that I have been given from people who know more about it.