Skills and Post-16 Education Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Committee stage
Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Watson has made a compelling argument for enhanced, nationally recognised and organised credit transfer arrangements. I do not want to repeat the points he made except to note that, in the context of the move towards more degree-level apprenticeships, the issue of credit transfer becomes particularly important because many, indeed, probably the generality of students starting out on apprenticeship programmes leading to degree-level qualifications will start in further education colleges.

Many of these have not conventionally offered higher education but are good apprenticeship education providers and will start providing the level 3 and 4 education which can lead to degree-level apprenticeship programmes. If we want to encourage more students through the apprenticeship route and for them to regard this as something they can progress to degree level, the issue of credit transfer is going to become a still more significant one in the education system in future years. The points my noble friend made are especially compelling.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, this amendment seems such a good thing, but I really doubt whether all the administration it involves is actually necessary or desirable. Governments are not always very keen on looking at what happened in the past, whether it succeeded and the reasons why not if it did not. Of course, that is never a reason not to try again, but it does seem pointless to spend time and money re-enacting things for which the criteria have not changed. This is one of the reasons I deplore the crash introduction of T-levels with no regard for other vocational initiatives—I am thinking of diplomas in particular— that were introduced unsuccessfully without consideration of past mistakes. I am afraid I do have quite a long memory of such things.

In the olden days of polytechnics, all accreditation was carried out by CNAA, the Council for National Academic Awards. In theory it should have been a very simple matter for students to transfer credits between organisations, as obviously there was a level playing field for credits. In practice, very few students ever transferred from one institution to another, and the mechanisms for doing so were by no means straightforward.

In 1992, polytechnics disappeared and were reincarnated as universities. For some this was not a great advantage: Oxford and Hatfield polytechnics, for instance, had tremendous names and becoming universities was certainly not initially a help to their well-earned reputations.

I was working for City & Guilds in the early days of national vocational qualifications in the 1980s. The Government gave permission for a large number of awarding organisations—some with pretty dubious credentials—to award NVQs. All awarding organisations had to agree to recognise any units awarded by any awarding organisation. City & Guilds, as the premier vocational awarding organisation, was not delighted by this, but conformed by spending a great deal of time and money ensuring that its highly protected accreditation mechanisms could accommodate units from another organisation. In practice, this arduous work proved largely unnecessary. There were few, if any, requests to transfer between awarding bodies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, this issue goes back some time. When I was a Minister, there was an issue about whether voluntary-aided schools—of which a high proportion are Catholic, as my noble friend says—could maintain the protections afforded to them in terms of their designated religious character and appointment of governors with a religious background and associations, and so on, as they transfer to academy status. The case he makes is overwhelmingly powerful. At the time there was also the issue of whether we would allow sixth-form academies at all because, in the original academy conception, until there was a change in the law, that was not possible. Now sixth-form academies are possible and, as my noble friend said, there are quite a few of them. Indeed, there is one just 200 yards from your Lordships’ House, Harris Westminster, a sixth-form academy sponsored by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Peckham, and Westminster School. It is an outstandingly successful institution, right by St James’s Park station. Noble Lords will see the students going backwards and forwards every day. It is excellent and exactly the kind of institution that we want to encourage more of, so it seems perverse that it is not possible for a Catholic promotor, including promoters of existing sixth-form colleges, to take advantage of the status.

As my noble friend says, encouraging sixth-form colleges—both the Catholic Church and the Church of England have their own sixth-form colleges; the Church of England is of course a major educational promoter in its own right—to become part of multi-academy trusts seems a very worthwhile step. This seems a straightforwardly technical issue, which perhaps the Minister can resolve with the stroke of a pen.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I briefly add my support to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, which would ensure that any conversion to academy does not mean abandoning the religious affiliation of any colleges. As the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, said, this issue goes back a long way. He mentions only Catholic schools, but I presume this would apply to other faith groups as well.

If we were starting from scratch, we might well decide to divorce education from religion, as many other countries do—the French seem to manage this quite successfully—but that is not where we are. Churches and other faith organisations have long played a very significant part in the lives of our students, to the very great advantage of young people and the country.

Fire Safety Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 27th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

I have not received any request to speak after the Minister. Does anyone in the Chamber wish to speak? Lord Adonis.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to say that matters have been considered in this way in the past but that does not make it satisfactory. He said that the Hansard account was available at 5.30 pm. That was one hour and 40 minutes ago and most of us were not even aware of that fact. I did watch the House of Commons proceedings on replay and had to note down by hand all that had been said several times, so that I could get the wording correct. No ordinary member of the public would think that these proceedings are satisfactory, and the Procedure Committee should look at them with a view to improving them. Huge issues are at stake here and they should not be rushed and railroaded through in this way. On that note, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness McIntosh of Pickering [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for giving us the opportunity to look at this very vexed area. Is the Minister aware of the situation and the fact that many living in isolated situations and deeply rural areas, as described by the noble Lord, feel that they are being disadvantaged in this regard? It would be helpful to know that. I entirely endorse what my noble friend said about seeking a balanced relationship between the landowner, the operator and the tenant, but can she confirm the point that I made earlier—I do not know whether she addressed it—that the landowner cannot use any delay, in any way, to prevent the service and the upgrade to a fibre network that would benefit the tenant? She would surely agree with that.

[Lord Adonis [V]]

I have nothing to add to what my noble friend has said.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Lord Naseby? Do we have Lord Naseby? Is Lord Naseby not available? In that case we will go to the Minister.

Electronic Communications and Wireless Telegraphy (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The Question is that the Motion be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”; to the contrary “Not-content”.

[Lord Adonis]

Not-content.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

I must remind the Grand Committee that a single call of Not-Content has the effect of negativing the Motion.

Trade Marks (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Monday 14th January 2019 Grand Committee

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

The Question is that the Grand Committee do consider the Trade Marks (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018.

[Lord Adonis]

Not content.

[Baroness Crawley]

Not content.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, I must remind the Grand Committee that a single call of “Not content” has the effect of negativing the Motion. With that in mind, I put the Question again.

[Lord Adonis]

Not content.

Higher Education (Fee Limits and Fee Limit Condition) (England) Regulations 2018

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Lord Adonis

Tuesday 24th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for introducing the regulations so lucidly. He referred to the review that is taking place on student finance, which is of huge importance, of course, to students and their families and to universities. He said that the report would come in early 2019 but he said nothing more about it. I have three specific questions about the review. First, will it be publishing either an interim report or any interim statements or summaries of evidence taken? I think that could be quite useful in stimulating the public debate that needs to take place around the future of the higher education funding system.

The second point is about consultation. Which groups of students and young people are the Government consulting, because a big and controversial issue has been the failure to include young people in the review team? The one group that is not a part of the review team directly is the group of very young people and students who are directly affected by this. That is a big mistake. The right thing to do, particularly if we are to win support from the generation that is paying these fees in a reformed system, is to have some buy-in from them at the beginning. The failure to put those arrangements in place will cost the Government dear. It would be good to know what consultation is taking place with young people.

Thirdly, what polling among the public and young people is the review doing to ascertain the attitudes of the public at large to the sharing of the burdens of paying for higher education and the attitudes among young people? My view all along, having played a part in the introduction of the original scheme in 2004 but having been opposed to the trebling of tuition fees in 2010, has been that students recognise that in order to be responsible and constructive members of society, particularly in the current climate, where they are very focused on getting jobs and making their way in the world, they need to make some contribution to the higher education system, but they resent the fact that all the costs of the higher education system have been moved to the students and the graduates. Polling might bring that out and might help to establish a basis of agreement on public attitudes, which might make a burden-sharing approach possible which, to be blunt, might mean cutting the level of fees from £9,500 but not eliminating them entirely.

My party’s official position is now to eliminate fees entirely. The noble Viscount’s position is to have them at £9,500. There is quite a big space between zero and £9,500. Being, as ever, moderate and constructive, I am quite keen that we come in somewhere in the middle of that space. That might be sustainable among the public, rather than doing what I fear may happen, which is lurching from a very high level of fees by international standards to no fees at all.

Finally, when I read the debate in the House of Commons Delegated Legislation Committee on these regulations, the Minister for Higher Education said that he was conducting a listening tour around the country. I am strongly in favour of listening tours; I wish the Government would conduct them on many other issues, too, including Brexit, but that is for a later debate. However, he gives an extraordinary figure for the number of students he has met, which I am hugely impressed by. He said that on his listening tour so far he has met more than 1,500 students. I am not sure whether those 1,500 have been in the hall with him as he has been going around or whether he has personally conducted conversations with them.

I would be very grateful if the noble Viscount could tell us whether he has any findings from the Minister’s listening tour or whether the Minister might publish findings from his tour when he has finished it, because knowing that he has conducted a listening tour but not knowing what he has heard is not of great use to Parliament when we come to consider these significant student finance and funding issues after the review reports in the early part of next year.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, building on the reviews by the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, can the Minister say what progress the Government have made in appointing the independent reviewer of the teaching excellence framework? I can only apologise if I have missed the announcement somewhere along the line.

What assurances can the Government give that the independent reviewer of the teaching excellence framework will be a genuine exercise that influences the future design of the scheme? We would oppose any attempts to link tuition fee rises to the quality of teaching as determined by the TEF, which we maintain has flawed metrics, several of which have nothing to do with teaching.

Have the Government considered replacing fees with a graduate tax? This statutory instrument makes no attempt to find a solution to the position set out in the recent Economic Affairs Committee report, which estimates that in 30 years’ time the Government will have to find:

“an extra £8.4 billion to cover expected losses on the 2017/18 student loans”.

Does the Minister have any comment on the immense debt with which the current scheme is burdening future generations?

We are pleased to see in these regulations that the Erasmus year continues to be mentioned. Can the Minister give us any further assurance on government plans to ensure that we continue to be part of Erasmus, whether or not we leave the EU? It is a programme that brings great benefits to participants and to the economy, as students return with a more significant skill set to offer to employers. Does the Minister have any certainty to offer us on Erasmus?

We continue to be concerned about the changes to nursing funding, and would strongly support reinstating student bursaries. It is good to read here about the exemptions on equivalent and lower qualifications for health professionals. Might that lead to a wider exemption for ELQs in other areas? As we know, loss of ELQ funding is one of the key factors in the disastrous decline in adult education, and we would welcome some good news on that front.

Will the Government carefully monitor the effect on nurse recruitment and retention of the recent changes to funding? We note that the number of applicants to undergraduate nursing courses in the year after the abolition of bursaries was announced fell by 11,750—a reduction of 18%. This compounds the existing shortage of nurses in the UK. Almost every hospital is dangerously short of nurses, and the Royal College of Nursing estimates that there are 40,000 nursing vacancies across the health and social care sectors. That shortage will only worsen if nurses cannot be easily recruited from the EU. I hope the Minister can offer some reassurances on those various aspects.