Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Twycross

3rd reading
Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her constructive engagement on this Bill and for briefing Members at an early stage, along with the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Rainow, and the right honourable Member for Harlow. I also thank the Bill team. Labour supports the Bill’s aim; we support the idea that people can access funding to undertake the learning they need throughout their career. With people undertaking portfolio careers and with continual changes in technology and society, it is no longer the case that what you learn through a traditional three-year degree course is all that you will need in your work for the next 45 years or so.

We had a number of interesting, if concise, debates as the Bill passed its various stages. The Bill is quite limited in scope and Labour still believes that there could have been scope for setting out a more formal review process on a number of its aspects. This would, not least, have helped to safeguard against unintended consequences, whether around distance and flexible learning or employers making a proper contribution to staff development.

There are a number of potential negative impacts on people who are less able to move to study or who are less able to study full-time because of caring responsibilities. From what the noble Baroness said, we hope and believe that the Government intend to monitor and review the lifelong loan entitlement as it is established and rolled out, to make sure that its promise and potential are fulfilled, and especially to ensure that every person in England can have their own promise and potential fulfilled.

I thank the team in the Labour group office, particularly Clare Scally, as well as my Front-Bench colleagues and mentors—my noble friends Lady Wilcox and Lady Thornton. Their patience and kindness in imparting their own lifelong learning and talking me, a relatively new member of the Labour Front-Bench team, through the process of the passage of the Bill has been hugely appreciated.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I apologise profusely to the House for arriving after the Minister started speaking; business moved much more quickly than I expected.

From these Benches, I thank the Minister and the Bill team very much for all their work on the Bill. We remain concerned about how many adults will wish to take on debt in order to improve their learning, and we look forward to hearing updates from the Minister about how many people have done so. From these Benches, we feel that grants would be a much more effective way of persuading adults to learn. But, of course, we are all totally in favour of lifelong learning, and we wish the Bill well.

Lifelong Learning (Higher Education Fee Limits) Bill

Debate between Baroness Garden of Frognal and Baroness Twycross

Monday 10th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Baroness Twycross (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 1 in my name and the names of my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox and the noble Baroness, Lady Garden of Frognal, and to Amendment 4 in my name and those of my noble friends Lady Thornton and Lady Wilcox.

As Labour made clear at Second Reading, we support the intention of the Bill. It is no longer the case that someone’s career can be predictable from the time they leave school, college or university. It is unlikely that someone starting their career will not have further educational needs during their lifetime and it is right that that is reflected in the funding available. However, it is Labour’s view that this is a good Bill that could be even better. As I said at Second Reading, it is a short Bill, and arguably too short. On the surface it does what it says on the tin, but with a bit more detail it would be more likely to succeed in the lifetime guarantee offers and a lifetime entitlement that it would bring about.

The further and higher education sectors also support the Bill. However, having such a limited Bill with little concrete information in it is of concern to those in higher education. We think that further consultation should therefore be built in to safeguard the success of the legislation. As the Open University said in its commentary, the Bill could be transformative, but the OU makes clear that its detailed design will be key to determining how it works in practice and whether it will be able to achieve the Government’s ambitions to deliver a fundamental and seismic shift towards flexible lifelong learning.

Amendment 1 would insert sectoral consultation into the decision about whether the fee limit for a course should be fixed or module based. Currently the Secretary of State has huge scope to decide that. It is likely that not all courses would lend themselves to being module based. We think that the extent to which a course is suited to being module based is likely to be something that the sector would be well-placed to have a view on.

Amendment 4 would include a similar requirement with credit-differentiated activity—for example, in relation to placements. The current wording gives the Secretary of State huge scope to decide the worth of placements in terms of credits. The amendment would insert a requirement for the Secretary of State to consult higher education and placement providers.

Without wanting to put words in the Minister’s mouth, I am confident that she may say that it is self-evident that the Secretary of State would consult on these matters. However, if that is the case, why not simply put the requirement to consult into legislation? I hope that the Minister will see the common sense in doing so and I look forward to her response on this matter.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her willingness to discuss issues in the Bill with all interested noble Lords. I have added my name to Amendment 1, for all the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Twycross. For these provisions to succeed, close co-operation and consultation with higher education and indeed other awarding organisations are crucial.

This is a small Bill with considerable limits. We had hoped to table amendments to ensure that careers information, advice and guidance were available to any of those wishing to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill, but we were told that that was out of scope. I fear that other of our concerns may also turn out to be categorised in that way.

There are a great many unknowns in the Bill. It is a matter of great concern that the number of adults over 21 accessing higher-level skills has fallen dramatically over a number of years. One reason is the lack of maintenance support—also, I fear, out of scope. The majority of part-time students do not have access to maintenance support and that can be a serious disincentive for them, so can the Minister say whether any thought has been given to maintenance loans—or, better still, grants—to enable the provisions of the Bill to succeed? I guess that this, again, will be out of scope.

As the Minister is aware, the Liberal Democrats are not convinced that large cohorts of adult learners will be keen to take on debt, and the lifelong learning entitlement is indeed a debt. We propose a skills wallet, putting money into learners’ pockets to enhance their skills learning and competence at three stages of their careers. We argue that that money would be rapidly recouped by the enhanced earning capacity of those who took advantage of it. We know that many adults are loath to take on additional debt, particularly in these times of economic difficulties. We will support any amendments calling for reviews to see how successful the offer of loans and debt is to adults.

I am not sure whether the Minister answered those concerns at Second Reading but obviously now we have to concentrate on the amendments tabled, which largely centre on clarification of what is or is not included in the Bill. We can only hope that the Bill has the desired effect. The country is woefully short of people with the skills that the economy needs and, if more adults can be encouraged to acquire those skills, we shall all benefit. However, it is a very little Bill.