Leveson Inquiry

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

No, my Lords, we should not proceed with those changes but we should certainly move with speed to see how such changes could and should be implemented. The recommendations on data protection came slightly from left field; I am not sure that anyone was fully aware that Lord Justice Leveson would make suggestions in this area. It is an area where we are discussing matters in a European context, in terms of revising the European data directive and our own legislation. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice and I have already commissioned work within our own department to respond to the Leveson suggestions. As with other parts of the report, we will move forward with all due purpose.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, while joining all the speakers who have condemned the attacks on people who are particularly vulnerable at times in their lives, such as the McCanns, and noting the Leveson report’s reference to a second inquiry, which cannot be discussed at this stage, will the Minister please confirm that not only the weak and vulnerable but everyone who has the sought the limelight or is in public life should be exempt from anything that is found to be an illegal action?

[Lord McNally]

Yes, my Lords, I am sure that that is broadly the case. I have just been asked to remind the House, in relation to the question asked by my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones, that the illegal use of data is already against the criminal law. I say in response to the noble Baroness that what we want is a press that respects us all, and for us all to respect that press.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 7th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, looking at public expenditure, sending a woman to prison and putting her children into care is an extremely expensive option, but in many cases the resources are not available for the alternative treatment that I know speakers in this debate and other noble Lords regard as a preferable option. The problem is that those who have to deal with a particular incident or the result of a series of incidents often cannot use that judgment. It demands lateral thinking to transfer resources from one course of action to another.

[Lord McNally]

I could not agree more with the noble Baroness. That was very much the thrust of the Corston report and of what the Government are trying to do in carrying through their justice reforms, particularly in the treatment of women offenders.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Fortunately, I know that the noble Lord has himself stood at this Dispatch Box, and I am sure that then he heard alarm bells going off in his head when anybody asked him questions with “if … if … if” in them. It is wise not to try to speculate. Of course things may happen beyond our control. The Government have made a judgment on these matters. We are asking the House to support that judgment, and we will find in the course of time whether that judgment is right.

The Bill is beginning to suffer from what I might call report fatigue, in that almost weekly a report comes out, usually sponsored by very interested parties, which is then quoted around the House. I would be the last to deny the right of groups to commission reports and to use their findings, but it is not necessary for those to be treated as holy writ. They are studies; we receive them, read them and take notice of them.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I ask the Minister for the Government to produce their report. It is no good the Government dismissing or implying self-interest among those who are producing independent reports. I ask the Minister for the Government's evidence on which they base their judgment. Like him, I accept that all sorts of things come out of the blue. I want to know how the Government reached their conclusion. Where is the evidence? Please share it.

[Lord McNally]

I suggest that the noble Baroness reads our impact assessment, which has been quoted. Our critics cannot have it both ways. At one moment, they are banging the Dispatch Box and saying that the impact assessment reveals this, that and the other terrible finding, and then they say that we have not done any research. The noble Baroness has been in both national and local government. Many people in local government of all parties are having to take tough, difficult decisions. In a time of austerity there are no soft options. We have of course had cross-departmental discussions about the measures. It is almost impossible to assess with any accuracy the various impacts on one department or another of various measures—which involve, at maximum, £350 million in a relatively small department.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance to the House that he will read this debate carefully and, where there are unanswered questions about costs that could occur, including costs to other departments, or any other questions to do with the validity of the Government’s assumptions and of the background knowledge that he assures us that the Government have, they will be answered in writing before Report to all noble Lords who have taken part today?

[Lord McNally]

No, my Lords. I will read the debate and consider these matters, but frankly some of the issues raised were so speculative that no responsible Minister would respond in that way. I assure the noble Baroness with all honesty that I will bring the facts before the House and will deal with the Bill with all the responsibility that I can. However, she is too old a hand—

[Noble Lords]

Experienced.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

The noble Lord has lost none of his Blackpool charm.

[Lord McNally]

Coming from a Preston girl, that is a compliment—I think. I will read Hansard. I realise that very interesting points were made, which I will study carefully and draw to the attention of the Lord Chancellor. With that, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Crime: Self-defence Homicide

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I think that the answer to that was indicated in the previous question and by the fact that the noble Lord has tabled this Question today. There are newspaper articles and general assertions made about what is right or wrong. Under our common law, home owners, small shopkeepers and householders can use reasonable force to defend themselves or their properties and will not be prosecuted. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor has made clear that he believes that the current law is broadly in the right place. However, we believe that it does no harm, in the light of a lot of these questions and articles, to make it clear in the forthcoming Bill. I think that it will do a lot of good in establishing where people, including the police, are positioned in this. It will also deter any thought that we are drifting towards any kind of endorsement of vigilantism or keeping a six o’clock special under the pillow. This is a consolidation measure to clarify the law.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister clarify the question from my noble friend Lord Mackenzie about the nature and circumstances in which formal arrest takes place?

[Lord McNally]

I think that I have made that clear. We are consulting on guidance. However, the trend of the Question tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, was that somehow policemen could make an instant judgment. Circumstances are very varied in these situations and the Director of Public Prosecutions has made it clear—and I think that the draft guidance implies this—that although police are invited to use common sense and discretion when assessing circumstances, the Director of Public Prosecutions cannot abandon his responsibilities in examining whether or not a crime has been committed and should be prosecuted.

Coroner Service

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

It may have been. I am not so sure that it is a proper use of Question Time to expect the Minister to know about an individual, personal case, which I fully understand for the individuals concerned must be extremely serious. One of the things that I do, as the noble Lord probably did as a Minister, is have a washing-up session after Question Time to see what needs to be followed up. However, I do not intend ever at this Dispatch Box to use personal cases either for attack or defence.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister explain to the House how the Government determine priorities? We are talking here about a consensus across the other place and your Lordships’ House on the importance of this post. The issue has been raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, on many occasions in this House. Yet, the Government pray in aid being careful with money while railroading through police and crime commissioners, who will cost millions and for whom there is no consensus outside. Where are the Government’s priorities when it comes to this sort of issue?

[Lord McNally]

I have already explained the process. I do not think that the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, my noble friend Lady Miller or other noble Lords have said that the Government have not been available to discuss matters or to go through the process with them. Just as when the noble Baroness was a member of the previous Government, the Government are entitled to make a judgment on a matter and to put it to the House. This matter will return to this place and the House will then have to make a decision. It is simply not true that we have not listened. We have made substantial changes to the implementation of the Coroners and Justice Act, so much so that I believe that I can stand up the claim that we are implementing the bulk of the 2009 Act. But our judgment is that a chief coroner is not needed in post at this moment. We have left it in the Bill so that a judgment can be made at a later stage. But at this stage the Government’s judgment is that we should not go ahead with a chief coroner. At a later stage, when the Bill returns to the House, I will defend that position.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Monday 3rd October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Absolutely and clearly—again, the conventions are clear. The statement in the White Paper is quite clear. It is the person and party who command the confidence of the House of Commons that will form a Government in any future circumstances. That will remain.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the Minister has cast aspersions on the seriousness of my noble friend’s Question. I am not alone in your Lordships’ House in believing that the Government should have looked at this matter first, rather than produce a Bill to change things with a plus ça change attitude towards the future role of this House or an elected second Chamber. Why will the Government not go away and do their job properly? Before the noble Lord attacks me, I am one of the Members in favour of reform. However, I do not want it done back to front, with the Government unravelling the system and then discovering that they have to work out how it will work in the future. That is the wrong way round.

[Lord McNally]

That is precisely why the proposals put forward by my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister are the most thorough, the most consulted on and the most open proposals for reform of this House that have ever gone before Parliament. Again, I draw the attention of the House to the fact that war powers—and the right of Parliament to debate them—are a very serious matter, for which the Government have promised to bring forward proposals. Again, I put forward the very clear statement in the White Paper: the conventions and powers of the House of Commons will remain supreme. That would be the case for war powers, as for any others.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

This again from a Minister who produced a White Paper that produced no such debate. They sat on reform for a decade. When we talk about consistency, I was on the Cook-Maclennan committee prior to the 1997 election, where my party and the Labour Party both committed themselves to a raft of constitutional reform, including reform of the House of Lords. My party has been consistent for the last 14 years on our proposals. The Labour Party has performed somersault after somersault after somersault and there is no way they can get out of it—that is the record.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

I remember well the noble Lord, Lord McNally, standing as leader of his party in your Lordships’ House and stating categorically that an elected second Chamber would never threaten the primacy of the House of Commons. At that point he was leader of the Liberal Democrats. How does he tie that in with the speech made by his noble friend Lord Ashdown, who said that this Chamber—if reformed in the way that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is advocating—would and should be able to challenge the Commons on issues such as going to war and finance?

[Lord McNally]

Is the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, in his place? No, he is not. When I was on the Cunningham committee, there was great bemusement because I said, as I still believe, that the House of Lords has the right to say no. That is an essential part of the relationship between the two Houses. I honestly wish to God that this House had voted on the Iraq war and that Ministers had read this House’s debate on the matter, but we will not go down that road, not because I do not believe it but because, even among the red herrings that the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, usually streaks across this debate, I am not going to pursue that one.

Prisons: OPCAT

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Monday 28th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Cuts are being made right across government. I will not go through the mantra of why that is so, as those on the noble Lord’s side know it only too well. However, all departments in which the cuts are being made are looking at how to maintain delivery under a much more difficult regime. That is one of the facts of life that we face as a country.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, would the Minister care to answer the second part of my noble friend’s question? How can the Government justify putting more responsibility on the UKBA when the Minister acknowledges that it is making reductions in effect by putting more responsibility on those staff? Surely a responsible Government would take account of this and not give extra workloads to those whose numbers are being severely reduced.

[Lord McNally]

The noble Baroness obviously sees herself as the minder of the Front Bench as she often pops up with questions that suggest, usually quite unjustifiably, that I have not answered the question. If she wants it more bluntly, we inherited an economic disaster. Every government department has had to take its hit, including mine; yet there are people within the public service grappling with those realities—in a way, may I say, that the last Government avoided. Those people will continue to do so, and I have every confidence that the UKBA will do that too.

Young People: Custody

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Wednesday 23rd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The nose technique has certainly been banned. My knowledge of the other two pain techniques that she mentioned is not as in-depth. However, I must emphasise that the whole thrust of advice and development, not only under this Government but over the past two or three years, has been, as I said in my opening remarks, to make sure that there is good training and consistency of staff attitudes in this matter. It is a difficult matter and I understand the concern, but it is a concern that I have detected in the staff and administration of the secure estate as well as around this House. The big problem, as successive Ministers have found, is that we also have a duty of care to staff and other inmates, as well as the desire to secure a safe and secure estate. Dealing with some of the most difficult and complex young people is very difficult, but reliance on administering pain is a very last resort in very difficult circumstances.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the Minister referred to the fact that government policy on the Youth Justice Board will be revealed on Monday. Is that because the Government do not have a policy today, or would he care to answer the question from my noble friend Lord Bach?

Constitutional Reform: Referendums

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I think that all parties agree that pre-legislative scrutiny is a good idea—certainly, I have been supportive of it—but, as we have said, it is not always possible when a radical and reforming Government hit the ground running.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, can the Minister give a logical, rational explanation were the situation to arise where there would be a referendum in the country on the system of voting for the Commons but not one on the system of voting for the House of Lords?

[Lord McNally]

There are so many hypotheses in that question that it would be as well if noble Lords showed a little more patience and waited for the proposals on the House of Lords that the Government will bring shortly bring forward. Without pre-empting my noble friend, I know that the Minister answering the next Question is eager to get on to that.

Prisoners: Diet

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 21st December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am not a great fan of celebrity chefs, but that is just a personal opinion; I know how popular they are. The Prison Service has recently been invited to consult on food, nutrition and behaviour within the young offender institutions, and the School Food Trust, a non-departmental body set up by the Department for Education and Skills, is looking into that with the Howard League for Penal Reform. I understand that it is operating on the basis of work done by Mr Jamie Oliver.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister care to comment on the fact that the Government seem reluctant to accept the benefits for children of high-quality and suitable diets at midday and, in schools in deprived areas, at breakfast? Will he transfer his commitment to good quality food for young offenders to all children?

[Lord McNally]

Absolutely, the noble Baroness is talking common sense, as she often does.

Parliamentary Constituencies: Boundaries

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 15th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Would the Minister give an assurance that the interests of the constituency in terms of geographical area covered will be given due regard by the Boundary Commission, because some constituencies could be almost half the size of Scotland? Could he also give an assurance that the Boundary Commission will be asked to have regard to those areas of dense population where everyone knows that the number of people who register is far below those entitled to vote, because those not failing to register are not necessarily spread evenly across the country?

[Lord McNally]

Yes, of course the Boundary Commission will be taking all those considerations into account. I understand the concerns about registrations to vote, which are extremely important. As I think was mentioned in a question yesterday, 92 or 93 per cent registration is not bad as an aim, but there is no doubt that there is difficulty about registration. My brief says that,

“non-registration was higher among private renters … unemployed … those without qualifications and those in non-permanent employment”.

There are similar bad figures for ethnic minorities. Those have to be looked at, and I am quite sure that that and other considerations will be taken into account by the Boundary Commission.

Queen's Speech

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord McNally

Thursday 27th May 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I suspect that the truth is that we had to start somewhere. We have five-year Parliaments in this country at the moment. I have said to my colleagues down the Corridor—some of whom are younger and more enthusiastic not than the noble Lord but younger than me—that when these proposals come forward we will benefit from the collective wisdom of the House of Lords on these matters, and so we shall.

Furthermore, we will publish a draft parliamentary Bill making sure that the law enabling parliamentarians to do their job is fair and adapted to modern circumstances. A Bill of this type was recommended by a Joint Committee of both Houses, which pointed out that there are a number of areas in which the extent of privilege is not clear. We will also bring forward legislation to implement the Calman commission’s final report on Scottish devolution. We remain committed to a referendum on the powers of the National Assembly for Wales. The Government believe strong devolution settlements mean a strong United Kingdom.

This debate would not be complete unless I said a few words about reform of your Lordships’ House. The Government’s position is set out clearly in the coalition agreement published last week. Perhaps the House might find it helpful if I remind it of the relevant section. Here, some noble Lords might like to adjust their pacemakers. We agree to establish a committee to bring forward proposals for a wholly or mainly elected upper Chamber on the basis of proportional representation. The committee will come forward with a draft Motion by December 2010. It is likely that this Bill will advocate single long terms of office. It is likely that there will be a grandfathering system for current Peers. In the interim, the appointment of Lords will be made with the objective of creating a second Chamber which is reflective of the share of votes secured by the political parties in the last general election.

This is the position: we are committed to reform; we are committed to a wholly or mainly elected Upper House. I am well aware that some sitting in this Chamber hearing my words—articulating as they do the collective wisdom of government policy—will think, “Well, that is okay, that is back in the long grass”.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I hope I get overtime for all this.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

I am sure the noble Lord will have many hours of overtime in your Lordships’ House. Can he be more explicit? Speaking as a grandmother, I know a little about grandfather roles, but the House would benefit from knowing exactly what the noble Lord means by a grandfather role for those of us who are Members now.

[Lord McNally]

Not this week. It is shorthand for transitional arrangements.