Visas: Foreign Domestic Workers

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 4th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords—

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister undertake at his meeting next week to reconsider his statement that there is security in knowing that people have been in employment for 12 months? The conditions in which they may have been in employment in some other countries may be equally bad.

Woolwich and the EU Council

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 3rd June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I obviously agree that Britain and other western countries have made a contribution and that it is important that that message is communicated. It needs to be done in such a way that the message will have resonance. By the same token, it is extremely important that all members of local communities, whether they are Muslims, Christians or whoever, work in the way that the noble Lord suggests. They must make it clear that the fear that some people perhaps have is not based in reality, given the behaviour of this country and the West towards Islam.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government, in looking at tax evasion and capital being moved around, will also look at the rights of workers, many of whom are being abused by the very companies that evade taxation and then criticise our income support projects, which are there to make up those companies’ shortfalls? Secondly, will he join me in saying that not only are extreme forms of Islamophobia unacceptable, but that parents, teachers and youth workers should listen very carefully for those children who, because of what they hear at home, or because of prejudice or for other reasons, can be heard using the phrase “You’re a Muslim” as a term of abuse? It is low-level abuse but it is a problem. I remember the head of a school in Lancashire many years ago saying, “We don’t have to deal with this because we don’t have any of those children here”. However, that low-level abuse can lead to an atmosphere of hostility. I hope that the Leader will agree with me on that.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I certainly agree with the common-sense point that the noble Baroness makes, and I am sure that everyone would agree. On her first point, the particular Council meeting talked about tax, but I will make sure that my colleagues who deal with these things day to day have heard the noble Baroness’s remarks about employment rights and the rest of it.

Procedure of the House

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 24th April 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, topical Questions each week are dealt with in precisely that way. As I have said, we would need to agree in the Procedure Committee, in just the same way as we would if we end up with a Back-Bench debates committee, the criteria by which that committee will reach decisions, because the House will want to know on what basis the judgments that the Back-Bench debates committee is making are being determined. At an earlier stage, the proposal for the Back-Bench debates committee was that it would make the consideration and would not have to give reasons, perfectly properly, for why it had reached its decisions. Whichever route we go down, we will have to have a set of criteria within which we operate, so that the House knows what the basis of the decision is.

My point, though, is that I am not proposing new procedures. The proponents of a Back-Bench debates committee are proposing a new procedure. I am effectively saying that we would still have the way in which we have already operated for a long time. There could be some improvements in terms of different criteria, cut-offs and so on, if that is what people want to pursue, but we would fundamentally stick with the current system. It is those who want to change the system who are proposing the innovation.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader has referred several times to the establishment by the Procedure Committee of some sort of guidance. To whom is the guidance given in this system if we do not have a Back-Bench committee? I do not follow this. I understand the lottery and I understand the Back-Bench committee but, if I do not like the interpretation of the guidance that leads to a particular result, to whom do I complain?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The guidance would be available to Members of the House in the same way as our guidance is currently available to Members of the House.

To move on, the issue of principle on which we are being asked to decide today is simple: do we want to stand by our current approach or do we want to introduce a new filtering mechanism for this new package of time, whereby a Back-Bench debates committee makes these decisions and decides what will be debated on behalf of us all? That, in essence, is what we are being asked to decide.

I want to make one final point, and then I know that the House would like to hear from Back-Benchers. Those in favour of a Back-Bench debates committee will obviously want to vote in favour of the Motion for resolution before the House. Those who are not in favour will want to vote against when the Lord Chairman moves it. For those who are not sure once they have heard all the arguments, it would be possible to stick with our current overall approach, perhaps refined in some respects, and see how the proposals for a guaranteed regular slot for a topical debate and more debates in the Moses Room bed down. In the light of that experience, it would of course be open to those who still favour a Back-Bench debates committee to bring forward those proposals again.

I hope that I have set out some of the background, explained the proposals and highlighted the essence of the decision that we are being asked to take. I am sure that we will hear some powerful speeches. I look forward to us reaching a decision on this matter of principle, but most of all to being able to crack on in the new Session with the new opportunities for debate that I have identified.

House of Lords: Oral Questions

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 21st March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Er. I contend that short questions tend to lead to shorter answers. As for giving a guarantee on behalf of the entire Front Bench that they will always be able to provide the clarity that my noble friend seeks, I cannot go quite that far.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, does the Leader of the House agree that supplementary questions often occur because the Minister has answered the question that they wish had been asked rather than the one that was asked?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I think there are a number of reasons why supplementary questions are asked. I looked at some figures that took a snapshot of the first six weeks of this year. They showed, somewhat to my surprise, that nearly 230 Members of your Lordships’ House had either asked Questions or supplementary questions in that period, which I thought was rather an encouraging figure and higher than I expected. There is, however, a point which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raised: not all those 230 Members asked one question.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, as a member of the Leader’s Group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and as a Whip in your Lordships’ House, I would not hazard a guess as to the number of noble Lords who would take permanent leave of absence. However, I recollect, when I was in both those roles, a number of noble Lords who attended quite regularly and with great difficulty because they felt that they had been asked to come in and serve for life. I would not dream of naming them, but some are quite regular attendees because they feel honour bound to attend because they feel that, were they to cease to attend, their expertise, which some have said they feel is a little out of date, would not be replaced in the interest of not making the House too large.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand that point. As is normally the case with the noble Baroness, it is sharp, perceptive and fair.

I am conscious that the House would like to move forward. I will say a brief word on the Motion that was moved by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood and about our powers of regulation in this area. The Leader’s Group got it right when it said that it could not recommend a moratorium on new appointments to the House. That must be correct. The Life Peerages Act 1958 gives the Queen the power to create peerages for life, with the right,

“to receive writs of summons to attend the House of Lords and sit and vote therein accordingly”.

Therefore, I agree with the way that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, and my noble friend Lord Cormack approached the issue. I cannot see that our right as an individual House to self-regulate includes the power to override that Act of Parliament.

I have set out why I believe that the Motion in the name of my noble friend Lord Steel calls for much action that has already been taken, and restraint that has been exercised. I have listened to the debate and recognise clearly that Members on all sides feel very strongly about the question of size. However, I hope that the figures that I shared with the House demonstrate that some beliefs about the issue of overall size are not quite borne out by the facts.

I believe very strongly that we must do more to accommodate rising attendance and the consequent increase in demand from Members, especially newer Members, for opportunities to take part in our work. I have strong sympathy with those who are uncomfortable about Members convicted of a serious prisonable offence returning to the House. Pending primary legislation to exclude Members on those grounds, I would certainly support steps to explore measures that we ourselves might take to discourage Members in that category from taking part in the work of our House.

Those are two areas in which we can help ourselves. On the remainder, noble Lords have set out their clear views forcefully. I have attempted to set out the Government’s position. I have no doubt that our discussions, both on the Floor and elsewhere, will continue. I will certainly play my part in those. In the mean time, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, will withdraw his amendment.

Schools: Performance

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I agree with my noble friend about the importance of school leadership, obviously. It is always the case that it is people who make the greatest difference. I would contend that the academy freedoms provide more space for those great leaders to exercise their professional judgment. So far as her important point about the provision of new leaders is concerned, I agree with her. We have extended the national leaders of education programme and the Teach First programme. We are extending the number of teaching schools. These are all important initiatives that should lead to an increase in the number of excellent school leaders to whom she rightly refers.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm publicly that the oft-used mantra of local authority control is no longer the case, and that local authorities have powers and duties but control is not among them? Given the full range of skills that young people need in their lives, is it not a disgrace to watch additional primary school places being provided in areas such as Pimlico, where they are not needed, and being built on sports areas which were used extensively by children and young people who cannot afford private sports clubs?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I have discussed the specific case that the noble Baroness raises before. I am not sure that the facts around primary school places and sports provision in London are quite as straightforward as she portrays. To take the general point, I feel very strongly that it is right that there should be more choice locally for parents who want outstanding primary school places. Whether or not there is a basic need problem, it is right that they should have that choice. So far as the free schools generally are concerned, most of that new primary provision is in areas of basic need. As regards the role of local authorities, they are discharging their responsibilities in different ways across the country. Clearly, the trend over a long period has been towards greater autonomy for schools, and that is something on which this Government are trying to build.

Schools: Children in Care

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My noble friend makes an extremely good point. The more that we can encourage the independent and the maintained sectors to work together and learn from each other, the better it will be. I am certainly keen to do everything that I can to take that forward.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, can the Minister tell us how many of the places identified in the independent sector are allocated according to ability and entrance criteria and how many are awarded on the basis of need alone?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I do not have detailed information on all the schemes that are currently running. The new scheme that I was talking about is being run by the independent schools and the maintained schools together. They are expressly clear that selection and attainment are not part of what they want to do. They want to make it available to disadvantaged children of all abilities.

Schools: Primary School Places

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 16th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

It is important that local authorities should make sensible decisions about where places are needed, irrespective of the type of school. The Government have made it easier for good, popular schools to be able to expand. Church schools, typically voluntary-aided schools, are their own admissions authorities and so have the ability to expand, but local authorities should address decisions about where to increase places irrespective of the school type.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that it would not be right for an academy to expand to take in primary school pupils, taking away sports facilities from that academy, in an area where the local authority, in Pimlico, says that there is not a need for more primary school places?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I know the case to which the noble Baroness refers. With regard to new primary provision, in many cases where there is new free school provision coming in, there is a basic need. In the specific case to which she refers, it is also the case that we are trying to increase the supply of excellent places and the academy that is seeking to open a primary has done a brilliant job in turning around a school that was previously failing. It became a sponsored academy under the previous Government. If it can extend that to primary school children, I think that it will be doing a good job.

Schools: Grammar Schools

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 16th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, the point I was trying to make is that we want a system that provides opportunities for children irrespective of their background, gives them the chance to get on, whatever their age and stage, and gives them repeated chances to get on. To that extent I agree with the thrust of what the noble Lord said. For some that will be an academic route; for some it will be a technical route; for some it will be a vocational route. We want to move away from the idea of one size fitting all and have a more diverse system that responds to what children need.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Does the Minister accept that there are those who attended selective schools who did not find them helpful? I ask him to remember that when, at the age of 13, I was asked by my careers teacher in a girls’ grammar school about my ultimate aim in life and I said, “To become a Labour politician”, I was asked whether I was being deliberately insubordinate.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am not sure that how the noble Baroness has turned out would have been affected by any educational system.

Disabled People: Access to School Examination System

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, as my noble friend says, it is extremely important that children with genuine disabilities get the extra leeway that they need. I do not believe that there are sanctions against schools that might be trying to push the rules of the system, but I will check that point. The responsibility for the overall integrity of the system rests with Ofqual, but I agree with her that we all need to make sure that this new guidance operates properly in the way that is intended. I am sure that my honourable friend Sarah Teather will be keeping such an eye on it.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, in taking the Education Bill through your Lordships’ House, the Minister stressed that free schools could employ teachers without qualifications. Can he give a categorical assurance that, were the Government to allow special schools to be free schools, they would not be free to employ people who are unqualified in special educational needs but could employ only properly qualified teachers?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

When we were having our debates, I am not sure that I said that I was in favour of free schools being able to employ teachers without qualifications—it was a point about qualified teacher status, which is a slightly different thing. I would not want teachers to be employed without qualifications. On the noble Baroness’s main point about special free schools, we intend that in special free schools teachers would have to have qualified teacher status.

Education: English Baccalaureate

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Tuesday 24th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Well, my Lords, an understanding between two religions could have been usefully applied in our own country in the 16th century. I accept my noble friend’s basic point about how important it is. Nothing that I have said, I hope, or that the Government are intending for religious studies, in any way undermines our support for the subject. I agree about the important role that it plays, particularly in a religiously and culturally diverse society. It is a statutory subject and the take-up is increasing, which I very much welcome.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, can the Minister give an absolute assurance that no school’s performance will be assessed on the basis of retrospectively applied rules and that all schools will be judged on the rules that applied at the time that they were assessed?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

Yes, my Lords. As the noble Baroness will be aware, the point of the EBacc is to provide information. It is not a performance or accountability measure. We use the same measure as we inherited from the previous Government—that is, five A to C GCSEs. The point of the EBacc, alongside other measures, is to try to provide more information. One would want to see more information being made available about schools offering RE, alongside the other, vocational subjects. The more that parents can see what a school is offering, the better it will be.

Schools: Physical Education

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 30th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I very much agree about the importance of training, whether it is for PE or a whole range of other areas. One of the ways in which the money that the Government have put in will help is by paying for PE teachers from secondary schools to spend a day a week out of school, perhaps working particularly with primary schools to embed best practice there as well.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords—

Building Schools for the Future

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 14th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

My Lords, I do not think that I am able to add a huge amount to the answer I gave my noble friend on that point.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, would the Minister, who I thank for his courtesy and his careful responses, care to inform the House how much money is available for people setting up free schools and how, having due regard to equality issues, that money should not be put alongside the available capital when considering the needs of schools in these authorities?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I should like to provide some context in terms of scale. As I am sure the noble Baroness will know, this year, the amount of money made available for free schools is £50 million. The department’s capital budget in total this year is in excess of £7 billion, so the scale of the sum of money made available to the free schools when viewed in the whole is small. One of the points of the free-school policy is to find new ways to set up schools that are quicker and cheaper, and to look at things such as leasing and the different uses of school buildings in order that we can try to get schools open more quickly and more cheaply than in the past.

Free schools will, I hope, be a great success if we manage to get them open and delivered more quickly and cheaply. I hope that they will provide a good education for children in the same way as all maintained schools; that is, they will follow the admissions code and all the other things that I know the noble Baroness would be keen to see.

Schools: League Tables

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 10th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

First, I think everyone in this House agrees on the need to try to narrow the attainment gap. The previous Government did quite a lot of work in that regard, which I am happy to recognise. I recognise the challenge that schools have with special educational needs but, by the same token, many who know far more than I do about the issue would not want to take the step of excluding children with special educational needs from measurement or being treated in the same way as other pupils in the school. More generally, it is important to publish more information about a school’s performance. My noble friend is absolutely right that we need to hold those schools to account for their performance and we think that that is best done by publishing more rather than less information.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Is the Minister aware, as I am sure he is, that when the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, produced her report, she referred to children who needed statements with special educational needs as being approximately 2 to 2.5 per cent of the 20 per cent of children who are not statemented, and should not be, but who have special needs? Is he also aware that many of those are concentrated in schools that have a welcoming atmosphere, and that take on board children with special needs at the risk of those special needs interfering with their attainment? Surely—this applies to all Governments—the ideal is to measure the value added by individual schools rather than merely looking at the attainment.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I accept fully the force of that point, and one of the changes that we are keen to make with our new floor standards is to measure both attainment and progression. The previous floor standards had only an attainment measure and we are planning to introduce a progression measure. I accept the force of that entirely. To go back to the previous point, it is clear that children come in all shapes and sizes, and one needs to try to have measures that reflect what a school does to bring out the best in those children, regardless of where they start from.

Children: Care

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am happy to take those points back and I hope that the Munro review, which is looking into this whole area much more broadly, will also come forward with helpful suggestions for all of us in this difficult area to make sure that we get the balance right.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

Will the Minister confirm whether his honourable friend in another place was misquoted or quoted correctly as saying that people who volunteer could help families with vulnerable children—something with which we all agree—and that, as a result of such voluntary activity, there could be a reduction in the number of specialists working in this field? Will he confirm that volunteers should never replace but only complement qualified social workers?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I am afraid that I am unable to answer the first part of the question on whether my honourable friend was quoted or misquoted, but I will happily look into that and, if I can get an answer for the noble Baroness, I shall. On her second point, I can confirm that, much though we all want to encourage volunteers across the piece in all sorts of ways, the key role of well trained professional social workers must lie at the heart of dealing with these difficult and sensitive issues.

Education: Funding

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 5th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

The role of Partnership for Schools will be considered as part of the review that we have announced. We plan to roll out Teach First to areas of the country that it has previously not reached and go to primary schools, which I am sure my noble friend will particularly welcome given her interest in the teaching of young children. I take her point about the importance of training for STEM subjects, for which there is a particular problem in finding teachers. I know that the previous Government worked hard on that. It is a problem faced by all Governments and I hope that Teach First will help.

As for whether the disappointed schools that were a long way down in the process would be first in the queue, the answer to all those questions is inevitably dependent on the comprehensive spending review in the autumn and how much capital the department ends up with. It would be wrong of me to presume on the outcome of that, but those are factors that the department will take into account when making future capital allocations.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, in repeating the Statement, the Minister said:

“Where academies are meeting a demand for significant new places and building work is essential to meet that demand, where there is a merger and use of existing buildings would cause educational problems and where there is other pressing need”,

the department will look sympathetically on the need for that work to go ahead. Will he give a categorical assurance that all other schools in the voluntary and maintained sectors will be treated in exactly the same way? Can we have an assurance that after the review, the £5 billion to which the Minister referred, that everyone agrees needs to be spent on our schools, will be returned? There will not be £5 billion of savings after the review unless the money is gone.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

On the noble Baroness’s first point, the Secretary of State said what he did about academies because the kind of schools that are in the academies programme from the previous Government, which we want to try to continue to support, are by definition focused in the areas of greatest need and deprivation. In looking at those, he will not give any blanket position but will review them on a case-by-case basis to consider as fairly as he can those individual circumstances.

On funding more generally, I suspect that those are decisions that will be taken by the Treasury, so I doubt that I can give any sensible undertaking at all.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

In the light of those comments, I will charge myself with asking those questions, as I think that the noble Lord makes a fair point. Given that what he mentions seems to be so successful, there must be points from it that have a wider application. We should make sure that we learn from them.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

If the House will forgive me, I will ask another question, as no one else wants to come in. In response to my earlier question, the Minister referred to the fact—and it is a fact—that the academies are concentrated in areas of deprivation. I asked him about equal treatment for schools in general. Will he give a categorical assurance that other schools in similarly deprived areas will have exactly the same criteria for new projects as the academies will have?

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I understand the question and, although I do not want to go too much into the gory detail, I will say that there are two criteria. There is a point in the process of BSF called “financial close”, which the Government are taking for the cut-off. It applies to maintained schools and academies. In addition, because academies are in areas of greatest need and deprivation, the Secretary of State will look on a case-by-case basis at whether any of them merit funding, either because a merger is in process or because new buildings are being built, without which children would have nowhere to go to school.

Free Schools Policy

Debate between Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton and Lord Hill of Oareford

Monday 21st June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I can certainly give my noble friend Lord Lucas the reassurance that he seeks on his first point. I shall need to write to him on the second point.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister to his post. Can he be more specific on the issue of the creation of surplus places by the development of one of these free schools? I still bear the scars from dealing—in Lancashire County Council many years ago—with the issue of surplus places. It is no good saying that there will be the same per capita per pupil for existing schools, because if there are surplus places, the per capita will have to go up to protect the curriculum.

Can the Minister also be a little more forthcoming about the relationship between the teachers, who he says have very good motives in setting up these schools, and potential conflicts with parents? Major parts of special educational needs in our schools are to do with behavioural problems. In my long experience of governing bodies where parents served, the parents would quite frequently wish to exclude the children with behavioural problems. This could totally wipe out the aims of the teachers whom he has described.

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

I hope that I can give the noble Baroness some reassurance at least on her second point. The provisions which we will be discussing in the Academies Bill, particularly in regard to vulnerable children, and which will be delivered through the funding agreement and will give these children broadly the same protections as are delivered through maintained schools, will also have to be delivered by free schools, which will be set up as academies and governed by the same safeguards. A free school could not decide to take an approach towards vulnerable children—statemented children—that is different from the approach of any other kind of school.

On surplus places, it was recognised as long ago as the 2005 White Paper that one of the effects of the policy was that, in some places where there was not parental demand, there would be surplus places. The whole point of the policy is to try to create something new for parents where there are surplus places.