Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Freud]

They are usually incentivised to reach targets, and we do not run a target regime. The no-targets message has gone out repeatedly.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, I fail to understand the Minister. Surely if someone is asked to regulate their business, as he calls it, in order to get to the norm, what is the difference between that and a target?

[Lord Freud]

The difference is that where someone is not performing in line with the rest of the business for no good reason—in other words, where there is nothing different in the underlying constituency of the business—they are not operating the business in line with the standards that we have. That is entirely different from having targets, because it is understood that no figures are going out with instructions to achieve something. The message that there are no targets goes out repeatedly to jobcentre managers; there has been a reminder from the Work Services Directorate that there are no targets; and we will investigate if people have misunderstood that approach.

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

It is Committee, but the Companion guides us by stating that, during any stages:

“Lengthy or frequent interventions should not be made, even with the consent of the member speaking”.

My noble friend is very tolerant and I know that he will keep responding to interventions. However, the hour is late and there have been several interventions.

[Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton]

My Lords, this is Committee. Many of us are deeply distressed about the Bill. To seek to curtail a discussion where clearly the Minister is saying that people will be asked to comply with a norm if they have no good excuse not to, is to my mind—and, I suspect, to the minds of other noble Lords—little different from a target.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I have answered the question. I will re-emphasise that we do not have targets, we have management information. I may not have convinced noble Lords on the other side, but they should be very familiar with running targets because that is how they tried to run the economy. We do not run targets because they create perverse behaviours. We collect information in this area, not least because it is required for public purposes. Furthermore, we need to run a business and we need to understand what different areas are doing in order to do that.

Referrals for sanctions are made on the merits of each case. Decisions on sanctions are based on evidence presented that is independently reviewed by decision- makers. The fact that only three-quarters of decisions made are upheld by these decision-makers proves the robustness of the process. Furthermore, there is an independent appeals process against decisions, so even if a target regime were in place, which it is not, claimants who were wrongly sanctioned could successfully appeal.

The flexible business model means that managers need to understand the reason for outliers. While differences can be for good reasons such as local labour market conditions, senior managers need to monitor the overall situation in order to spot and correct anomalies.

Given what I have said, it would be odd to require the independent report to cover a sanctions target that does not exist. However, we are happy to give reassurances that we will make clear the position in respect of targets and league tables. I have done my best today, but clearly more may need to be done for some noble Lords.