Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend is absolutely right that Conservative MPs were indeed elected on the manifesto, and there is nothing hard line about that whatever. We believe that the deal we have will deliver the benefits of a customs union but with the ability to develop an independent trade policy, which is what we want to see in the future.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

The noble Baroness keeps repeating this, but she knows as well as everyone else in the House of Commons and elsewhere that the deal will not go through. That may be a bad thing or a sad thing but it is reality, and it is time to face up to that because the country is in such an appalling state. There are only two options. I do not like referendums, I did not want referendums like this and I certainly do not like referendums on a finely judged point. But we are stuck in a situation which cannot continue, so either you go for a referendum or in some way we withdraw it. The alternative at the moment is to be stuck in this position, not just until August but beyond August. Either the Prime Minister or a substitute or replacement Prime Minister has to take a decision on this. We cannot go on in this situation, because we will be stuck in this situation throughout the summer and beyond.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

People have not seen the withdrawal Bill yet. It is being published on Friday, so I urge the noble Lord and colleagues down in the other place to wait, look at it, reflect, and understand that we need the Bill in order to leave the EU, whatever you wish the future relationship with the EU to be. I would ask everyone to look at the Bill and consider it, and then the vote will be brought forward at Second Reading. I hope that we will then see the Bill begin to pass, and we can then move on, as everyone here has said, to the future relationship with the EU.

Exiting the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in my response to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Lord, Lord Newby, we will explore a number of ways in which this reassurance might be achieved. The Prime Minister has been clear that she has heard the voices of both Houses and will do what she can to achieve those reassurances.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

There is a section in the Statement that implies that the two Houses will have more influence than they had before. Many of us think that is long overdue; had Parliament been involved earlier, it might have got us to a better place than we are in now. The Prime Minister talks in the Statement about being more in contact with the House of Commons in particular, but presumably also with this House. If the Government can expand on that, we might get an approach from Parliament that helps the Government in what is by any standard a major crisis.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

In the debate last week, the Prime Minister said in her opening speech—and I repeated it here in my opening speech—that we are looking at ways in which Parliament can be more involved. Specifically, in the Statement today, she said and I repeated that:

“We are also looking closely at new ways of empowering the House of Commons to ensure that any provision for a backstop has democratic legitimacy and to enable the House to place its own obligations on the Government to ensure that the backstop cannot be in place indefinitely”.


The Prime Minister will continue to hold discussions with Members to think about how best to do that.

G20 Summit

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord. He is right that there was agreement that reform is needed to improve the WTO’s functioning. A step forward was that progress on this will be reviewed at the next G20 summit. The G20 has given the WTO a strong mandate for reform and we now want to see everyone working together. I can certainly assure him that our priorities for WTO reform include ensuring the continued effectiveness of the dispute settlement mechanism, including the role of the appellate board. We want to enhance transparency in the system to improve trust and to enhance the rules by ensuring clear disciplines on distortive subsidies and state-owned enterprises. We will be taking these forward strongly. He asked about migration. I can say that we will indeed be at the upcoming intergovernmental launch of the global compact. We support this compact, both in terms of international co-operation and as a framework to help us deliver our commitments under the sustainable development goals.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, in view of the rather chaotic state of the Government, this might seem a slightly premature question, but the Statement refers to various attempts to make deals with other countries on trade. There are some interesting references to how that might be done. Given that we are going to be a rule taker from the EU for quite some time—some of those rules are very good: data protection rules, for example, are of a very high standard—is it our intention to negotiate trade deals with other non-EU countries using those rules, or are we going to have different rules for every country we negotiate a deal with?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Obviously, we will have discussions with different countries and work out trade deals that work best for both parties, but we have been very clear that we will not be lowering our standards in a whole array of areas, because we have been world leaders in setting them and we want to remain so.

October European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, yes, because we have already accepted that and been clear about that in relation to the implementation period.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

In the near future we are likely to have an agreement—good, bad or indifferent, we wait to see. There will then be this implementation period, but I take the same view as that taken by the noble Lord, Lord Howell, I think: there is no way that this complex political and economic arrangement between the UK and the EU is going to be sorted out in just a couple of years. This is going to be work in progress for quite a few years to come, and I still do not understand from the Government the sorts of structures they have in mind to ensure that the UK and the EU stay close together politically and economically, because it is in their interests to do so. Picking up a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, the common security and defence policy will continue; we will have no say on how that is used but we are indicating that our forces will stay involved. I am not asking for an answer to that issue, but there are many issues of that type. I need—and I think the House needs—some idea of the structures we are looking at beyond the implementation period that will allow us to ensure that we have a continuing good agreement. Is it a Joint Committee or is it something bigger?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will be aware that alongside the withdrawal and implementation Act and treaty there will be a future partnership or future framework document setting out where discussions have got to about the future relationship. That will be the first time the noble Lord will see where we have got to in that discussion. That will then be the basis of the negotiation discussions, once we have agreed the withdrawal agreement and implementation period, to take forward that relationship. On the structure and scope of the documents, some of the things we have mentioned that we have started to make good progress on will be obvious from that document. That will then be worked on and will be the basis of the future partnership that we will look to have by 2021.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As we have said, we do not want to see the backstop used at all. We anticipate that we will be able to move seamlessly from the implementation period through to our future partnership but, to have this insurance policy, we need a backstop. We have been very clear about what that backstop must not do. We have put forward proposals to make sure that we can offer a solution to that and we will continue to discuss with the EU how to ensure that we achieve that outcome.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I am relieved to hear that the Cabinet is behind the Prime Minister, but I have to say that some of them look and sound remarkably like Brutus, so she should be advised to take caution. The Minister and the Prime Minister have both used the word “gap”. Is that a gap of months or years? Is there some indication of how long it will take?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I say again: we do not intend there to be a gap.

Salisbury Incident

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are certainly aware of a number of individuals who have presented at Salisbury District Hospital following the recent incident. Those individuals have been assessed and discharged, and have been advised that if they subsequently feel unwell they should re-present at hospital. Advice has been provided to GPs, acute hospitals and emergency departments across the NHS on the action that should be taken if individuals present following exposure to chemicals. There is some evidence that repeated exposure to trace levels of a contaminant over an extended period could cause harm, and that is why a lot of the focus of the current work is on preventing long-term exposure. However, I shall take the comments and suggestions made by the noble Countess back to the Department of Health.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, an attack with a weapon of mass destruction on British soil is profoundly serious and very dangerous, and the Government deserve our support throughout the House on their reaction to this. It is very clear that Putin is using this to boost his nationalist image of “Russia surrounded”, and we have to be aware of the propaganda value of that. We also have to be aware that he uses it to threaten and frighten anyone in Russia who is thinking of moving over to the West; this is really a terrorist-type attack on such people. The Chemical Weapons Act is profoundly important here. There seems little doubt that the production of banned chemical weapons is going on in Russia, and that needs to be addressed at every level possible. All our allies are important in that.

My other point is about Russia Today. I regard RT as a pretty sophisticated propaganda channel but it would be a mistake for us to take any action to ban it, for two reasons. First, if we did, it would give the Russians—or the Russian Government, to be more precise—a wonderful excuse to ban the BBC, which is one of our ways of talking to the Russian people. Secondly, it would make us look, and the Russian state would certainly use it in this way, as if we were against a free press.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his very constructive comments, and I agree with them. The noble Lord sitting in front of him asked earlier in the week about Russia Today. As I said then, any revoking of a broadcasting licence is a matter for Ofcom, which obviously has stringent rules relating to ensuring that news is reported accurately and impartially. The noble Lord is right, however: Russia enjoys a near monopoly over Russian-language media across the post-Soviet space and uses it to spread disinformation. It is as important as ever that Russian speakers have a choice in the media that they consume and are able to access reliable and objective information. So, in addition to BBC Russia, we will be investing about £8 million next year in supporting public service and independent media operating in the Russian language.

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I do not accept that premise because we believe the best way to avoid a hard border is to negotiate the right trading relationship between the UK and the EU, and that is what we will now be able to do. Discussions on the border will be a critical part of the phase 2 negotiations.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe I heard the Minister say that during the period of payments—which I welcome, incidentally—trade will continue on current terms. I think that was the phrase that was used. If that is right, what does that mean if it does not mean either the single market or the customs union or something of that nature? Admittedly it is only for the period in which the payments continue, but for that period, trade continues under current terms, which is, I think, the Statement the Minister read out.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

It is actually during the implementation period that the UK’s and the EU’s access to each other’s markets could continue on current terms. During the implementation period, we would stay in all EU regulators and agencies and take part in existing security measures.

Sexual Harassment in Parliament

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 30th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

I strongly support this approach. It is long overdue. Having tried to deal with it before, I have a lot of sympathy with it. We are engaged in a very complicated process involving not just Members of both Houses, but members of political parties and relationships between parties and Members. On top of that, you have the complication that every Member—particularly in the House of Commons, but also here—is also an individual employer. There is not necessarily a clearly drawn-up contract of employment; it varies immensely. Going down the road of having a contract, which I am not unsympathetic to, has payment implications, which opens up a whole can of worms. I really want to support this as it is very important, but there is a complex set arrangements here that we need to tackle right the way through.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord has highlighted exactly the complexity. It is critical that we get it right, which is why I did not want to give a false timetable. We cannot rush this, only to get it wrong, but we want to move along because we consider it important. I have been in a number of meetings today, and the points the noble Lord has raised are certainly things we are all well aware of. We will work across the House and across parties to make sure we have a robust system in place that Members, staff and the public can have faith in.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I knew this block of flats well as it was part of a complex—about six or eight of them—which was included in the Hammersmith area which I represented for many years. I often went into Grenfell Tower when campaigning for elections. It is important to say that those flats were very spacious inside and were not at all unpopular with residents if—this was the crucial bit—they were managed well. There are questions about management on which my noble friend and others have touched. That is a matter for the inquiry and I do not wish to second-guess it. However—this is very important—my understanding from many people who have made comments, such as residents and organisations or individuals representing residents in that block, is that they warned of a fire risk. If residents or residents’ associations or representatives express concern about fire safety, that should be dealt with as a matter of urgency and immediately, whatever the other concerns. It is far too serious to be put to one side to be looked at later. Sadly, in this context, I note that the chief executive has resigned. I guess that is probably the right thing to do. Having heard the leader of the council’s comments on television soon after the event, I felt that he was out of his depth and did not understand the extreme nature of the horror that had overtaken that block of flats. In those circumstances, I also think that he should consider his position.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I disagree with nothing that the noble Lord has said. As I have said, we want the inquiry to look at all elements of this tragedy to make sure that such things do not happen again. The noble Lord is absolutely right: we have heard a lot of reports of the residents’ groups complaining and putting forward their points of view about their concerns and not being listened to. That is why it is crucial that we get the inquiry set up, that it is judge led and that the voices of families and victims are heard so that we can make sure this does not happen again. I know that is of no comfort to the families who have lost their lives in this but we will have to learn these lessons and make sure that we follow through.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. We most certainly want a deal that provides the freest possible trade with European markets and gives British companies the maximum freedom to trade with and operate in the single market. While he is right that we cannot conclude deals with EU members, there is nothing to stop us from having informal discussions and considering future options on free trade agreements. Countries like Canada, India, China, Mexico, Singapore and South Korea have already said they would welcome talks. We do not believe this is in competition with talks that are ongoing in the EU. As the Prime Minister made very clear in her Statement, we will continue to fully support EU trade agreements while we remain a member of the EU.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I echo the sentiments of my noble friend Lady Smith that we are becoming increasingly semi-detached from the European Union. In my judgment that has been happening for some years, not just since the referendum. It is related to the relationship with Russia. At the end of the Council Statement, the point is made that there was a policy debate about relationships with Russia. Since the Ukraine crisis, we have been marginalised; this is not just about Syria. I am anxious that it will just play into Mr Putin’s hands if the European Union and Britain are not working in very close unity. What procedure will the Government have to make sure that we work very closely together on European Union foreign policy and UK foreign policy?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I mentioned in response to the noble Baroness, it was due to the UK that this issue was one of the main items on the agenda of this Council. I therefore assure the noble Lord that we continue to put pressure on and work with our European allies to make sure that we take a robust stance. The Prime Minister had discussions with Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande to ensure that we had a united and robust approach. We are standing with the EU in relation to sanctions placed on Russia in response to its aggression in the Ukraine. We and the EU have said that we will consider further options if the atrocities continue. We want to ensure a settlement and peace in Syria and are working very hard with our European colleagues and in the UN. On Friday, for instance, we secured an extraordinary session at the UN Human Rights Council to press for a ceasefire to enable humanitarian access to Aleppo. We are using all the international bodies we can to make sure our voice is heard and that Russia faces up to the consequences of its actions.

G20 Summit

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Soley

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, we are not turning our back on Europe. We want to be a global leader in trade and we are negotiating a new relationship with Europe.

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, what will be the noble Baroness’s role in this? There are a number of European Union committees—I am a member of the Sub-Committee on Home Affairs—which are looking at legislation coming from Europe now. My view is that we will have to make some attempt to put into British law those things that are coming through and then change them later. How will the noble Baroness manage the House’s agenda on European legislation that is coming through now and will continue to come through? We cannot assume that we will not put it into effect, in particular on security, policing and terrorism, which is an immensely important area. Does she have any proposals for how we handle this?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is absolutely right: it is critical that the well-respected work of the EU committees should now reflect the new reality that we are in. Certainly, through the usual channels and discussions with other Members across the House, we will be looking to ensure that the way we work here allows us to involve ourselves in the most effective way. We are in early discussions—obviously we have only just come back from Recess—but I assure the noble Lord that it is at the forefront of my mind. I will, I am sure, be involved in a number of conversations with my opposite numbers over the coming weeks.