European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Government’s position is that we will work towards a deal which is in the best interests of the UK and the EU. That is why we will continue to try to ensure that we get that vote, and get the deal through, so that we can leave in an orderly fashion.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

Would the noble Baroness help me here, with a process of elimination? I am slightly confused. Since the Prime Minister says that there is no chance of any change to the withdrawal deal, and since the Speaker in the other place says that there is no chance of a Motion being brought back without fundamental changes to its substance, and therefore the deal, that would seem to preclude bringing the same Motion back for the third time. First, could the noble Baroness explain why the Prime Minister thinks she can bring that Motion back without the substantial changes which, as she says, would be utterly opposed by the European Union? Secondly, irrespective of what the House of Commons votes for this or next week, since there is no chance of substantial changes to the deal, that is not a substantial platform for moving forward between now and April. Does everything not point to the conclusion that there either has to be a revocation or a very long extension of the present timeframe, to allow for something substantial, such as a general election or another referendum?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Council formally endorsed the legal instrument relating to the withdrawal agreement and the joint statement supplementing the political declaration. There was further movement at the Council with this formal approval, so that is a change to the withdrawal agreement since the last vote.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 14th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sorry that that is the view of the noble Lord. The exchange of letters does set out four key assurances. We believe that progress has been made. I repeat, as we have repeated constantly over the past few months, that neither the UK nor the EU wants the backstop to happen. It is an insurance policy. We and the EU have been very clear that there are alternatives to the backstop, and the House of Commons will be given a chance to discuss those if we do not have our future relationship in place—which we are all working hard to do and which the EU has committed again in these letters to work towards.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

The Leader of the House has suggested that the biggest threat to the unity of the United Kingdom would be to have a second referendum. Will she reflect on the fact that actually the biggest threat to the United Kingdom would be if the Government were to create the circumstances in which those who wished to break up the United Kingdom were better placed to win such a referendum, particularly if the Government followed a course of action that was opposed by the people of Scotland and the people of Northern Ireland? Does she recall that there is a thing called unintended consequences? However much the Government wish—as we in this House wish—to retain the unity of the United Kingdom, they are in grave danger of creating circumstances in which, if a referendum is held in other parts of the UK, that unity may be put under threat.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is right—which is exactly why the Prime Minister has been working constantly and hard to get a deal on the table that both preserves the unity of the UK and allows us a strong relationship with the EU. That is the deal that is on the table. We are now asking MPs to vote for that deal so that we can move forward and start focusing on the strong future relationship with the EU that we want so that we can develop that partnership.

Exiting the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is right that specific conditions are set out in the EU withdrawal Act, and we will abide by them. The final two days of debate and subsequent vote in the House of Commons are being deferred to a later date and the amendments that have been tabled will stand when the debate is resumed. As I made clear to the noble Lord, our position on Article 50 has not changed.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, other leaders have indicated that they are open to further discussion on this issue and we remain committed to getting a deal. However, my noble friend is right that in the unlikely event that we leave the EU without a deal, the financial settlement as set out in the withdrawal agreement would no longer apply as there would be no withdrawal agreement.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that her two arguments against putting this back to the people—that is, first, that the people have already voted and cannot be reconsulted and, secondly, that somehow any vote would divide the nation—are perfect arguments for abolishing general elections? That is precisely what a general election is: it is a reconsultation—after a period, in the light of experience and further information—by asking the people again. Can she tell us why those principles apply to a second referendum but do not apply to general elections?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

At the last general election both main parties said that they would respect the result of the referendum and deliver Brexit. We are doing that.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the noble Lord’s first question, I answered it in my reply to my noble friend’s question when I said that we intend to have the future relationship come into force by the end of 2020. On the noble Lord’s second point, only the CJEU can bind the EU on the interpretation of EU law, so we have agreed that where a dispute raises a question of interpretation of EU law, the arbitration panel can refer this question to the CJEU for interpretation. What it cannot do is ask the CJEU to resolve the dispute. That will always be done by the independent arbitration panel. An ability for the CJEU to provide an interpretation of EU law is not the same as resolving disputes. The EU has been clear that that must fall to an independent arbitration panel. This respects the principle that the court of one party cannot resolve disputes between the two.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, first of all, I find this a comprehensive and interesting list of subjects for future discussion—but that is all it is. I caution the Minister against overselling it as something else. That—the misrepresentations—was part of the problem with the original referendum. For instance, the noble Baroness says:

“It ends the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK”,


but this declaration does no such thing. It is not a deal, even leaving aside the fact that the 27 others have not agreed it yet. Even when they have agreed it, it will not be a deal; it will not be an agreement—or rather, it will be an agreement to look for an agreement at some future stage. So will the Minister please not oversell it?

On the European Court of Justice, I am not a lawyer—as I have said, that is neither a boast nor a complaint—but I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. What the Minister says is just not true. She is inadvertently misreading this. Not only does paragraph 132 say:

“The Parties will base arrangements for dispute settlement and enforcement on those provided for the Withdrawal Agreement”,


but paragraph 134 says:

“Should a dispute raise a question of interpretation of Union law, which may also be indicated by either Party, the arbitration panel should refer the question to the CJEU as the sole arbiter of Union law, for a binding ruling”.


Crucially, it then goes on to say:

“The arbitration panel should decide the dispute in accordance with the ruling given by the CJEU”.


So it does not give just a ruling, it gives a binding ruling, which the arbitration panel must decide in accordance with the ruling given by the European Court of Justice.

I am not asking for a legal answer at present. All I ask is that Ministers be very careful that they do not try to oversell this as somehow a deal that has been done and agreed. It is a framework for future discussion, kicking the can down the road; that may be necessary but it is no more than that, so I ask the Minister not to misrepresent it.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think I was clear; I hope I was. I said that it sets out a clear vision and is a framework for the future relationship between the UK and the EU, and that it provides the negotiating instructions that will aim to deliver the full legal agreement by the end of 2020. We are on both sides committed to turning this into a legally binding treaty as soon as possible. In relation to the noble Lord’s points about the CJEU, I gave the answer to the noble Lord and I can only say again that an ability for the CJEU to provide an interpretation of EU law is not the same as resolving disputes.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in response to questions from the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, work will now begin on a fuller political declaration that will be published after the November summit.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, quite frankly we could do with more time. If the 2016 vote was about anything, it was about taking back control—that was the slogan and that was what the vote was about. This deal leaves us with less control, less power and less influence in Europe and the wider world for an indefinite and prolonged period. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, pointed out, as regards our domestic regulations and laws it leaves us with no voice, no vote and no veto. How can the Government possibly contemplate trying to take this through Parliament when it is the absolute opposite of what the people voted for, rather than taking it back to the people and letting them decide?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, having agreed the withdrawal agreement, we will now be able to talk about moving on to our future relationship, which will bring back exactly the kinds of powers and develop exactly the kind of relationship that the noble Lord is talking about. The withdrawal treaty is about leaving the EU; we can now look forward, having agreed that, to an excellent future relationship together.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I hope I made clear in my answer to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord that the Prime Minister has been clear: we will be publishing a joint political declaration at the time of the withdrawal agreement, because we completely understand Parliament will want to see the two documents together.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, today’s Statement was completely predictable. Among others, I pointed out as early as January this year that the only way to square the circle of the Prime Minister’s two promises—to the EU, that there would be complete regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland; and to the DUP, that there would be the same alignment between Britain and Northern Ireland—was to remain in the customs union. Today the Prime Minister laid that out, under another name but as her strategy. This is not a backstop; this is a three-year deferral until December 2021, the date used by the Prime Minister today. But it creates two problems—out of the frying pan, into the fire. Why should the European Union unilaterally, in advance, abrogate its right to the promise we made in the event of not having a solution in 2021 and just abandon the backstop that we signed up to? Secondly, if it does not do that, and gives a conditional break clause in 2021, our remaining in the customs union will be permanent, or at least indefinite, and the Prime Minister will never get it through Parliament. How does the Minister think we can square that circle?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As was laid out in the Statement, we put forward our proposal for a UK-wide customs backstop to deal with these issues. That is what we will continue to work towards. The EU proposal is unacceptable. We believe we are not so far apart that we cannot come together but, as the Statement sets out, there are issues between us that we need to continue to work through, and that is what we will do. We will not renege on our commitment to the Good Friday agreement or our promises to the people of Northern Ireland.

Exiting the EU

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are confident we will be able to reach an agreement with the EU. On the withdrawal Act, a White Paper will be published in the coming weeks which will provide more detail on what will be in the Bill.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, I first apologise for having missed the first few minutes of the noble Baroness repeating the Statement. I was in the other place, listening to the Prime Minister’s Statement. With great respect, it does not improve much by repetition. On the subject of the quaintly named “facilitated customs arrangement”—in simple terms, for anyone who has not ploughed their way through the three pages, it means that we will have two different rates of taxation at the border of the United Kingdom for imports—the noble Baroness is a very intelligent Leader of the Opposition—

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

Sorry, that was both inordinate expectation and a Freudian slip—probably overhopeful thinking. Does she not recognise that having two rates of import tax at the borders will inevitably lead, first, to a bureaucratic nightmare for British manufacturers and, secondly, to a smugglers’ paradise not only here but in Northern Ireland—I speak as a former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, where they have 300 roads between the north and the south? Thirdly, it is clearly a method of undermining fair competition in manufacturing throughout the United Kingdom, as anything that you as a distributor claim that you are importing for a British manufacturer will be incorporated in a product at less cost, which we will then try to export to Europe. Lest I am accused of not having an alternative plan, why do we not just stay in the customs union?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. We believe that this is a business-friendly model which will seek to facilitate the greatest possible trade between the UK and its trading partners, whether in Europe or the rest of the world, while allowing the UK to set its tariffs. There will be no new routine checks or controls for UK businesses trading with the EU. In relation to his suggestion of a smugglers’ paradise, the proposal includes additional behind-the-border enforcement to prevent third-country trading countries from seeking access to the UK through trade circumvention rather than through agreeing free trade agreements with preferential tariffs.

G20

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Lord Reid of Cardowan

Monday 10th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend for covering a range of issues. We certainly called for changes to make the trading system more effective and quicker to act, and for all WTO members to take more responsibility for complying with the rules, but of course we made clear our firm commitment to free trade. The Prime Minister also discussed further aid to Italy, which is facing real problems in terms of the migrants who are coming over at the moment. We indeed welcomed the US-Russian agreement in relation to Syria: we obviously welcome any initiative that contributes to a reduction in violence in Syria and we hope that all parties will engage to this end. A genuine cessation of hostilities is fundamental to progress towards the inclusive political settlement that we will continue to work towards.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan (Lab)]

My Lords, on the much vaunted US trade deal announcement, did the Minister notice that four days ago at the G20, President Trump announced a very big, very important deal with the Russians on a joint cybersecurity unit? Did she further notice that that did not last 72 hours—it was abandoned last night? What inference does she draw regarding the reliability of such proclamations following joint photo calls and press conferences by the American President and others?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I made quite clear in my responses to the noble Baroness, we are at a very early stage. Working groups have been set up and discussions are going on, but we are at an early stage, and we shall continue to talk to the Americans.