Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Sherlock

Monday 21st December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I believe that the full scope of the reports has yet to be decided. I am certainly happy to take back those two suggestions to the department.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this short debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, and my noble friend Lord Beecham for their support.

We heard a lot of emphasis on evaluation. When the Minister takes this back to the department, I urge her to reflect a bit more carefully on that. I was a little concerned that, towards the end of her remarks, she seemed to imply that we do not need to assess either quality or funding because if the outcomes work it must have been okay. The question I would raise is that of causality. We are dealing here with very complex situations. Essentially, a family that is already engaged with lots of agencies and that may have multiple problems is an organic and dynamic unit—coming in and going out all the time. To assume, because it started at X and ended at Y, that what happened must have been the right thing is a very central government assumption and a slightly risky one in the circumstances.

I ask her to take that back, along with the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Beecham about longitudinal studies and peer review, to try to think very carefully about how we can capture the learning. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Farmer, the point of these programmes is that what one authority does may not be the best thing for another authority. It depends on the circumstances, as my noble friend Lord Beecham described.

I also take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, about terminology. Certainly, when I was on the riots panel I talked to a number of families who felt that being stigmatised got in the way of their trying to deal with things. It was not that they did not know they had problems; it was just that everybody constantly telling them that they had problems did not help. They wanted help to get themselves out of those problems, not to be branded. We need to find a way to ensure that that does not happen. I encourage the Government to think some more on that.

I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Beecham for pointing out to the noble Lord, Lord Farmer—whose interest in this subject I recognise—how many local authorities are struggling with funding, especially in the poorest areas where so many of these families will be. We need to be aware of that. I am grateful for the subject having been aired in this debate and I hope that the Government will come back to us on this on a regular basis. Given that, I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said, by being upfront about the freeze, we are trying to ensure that people in receipt of these benefits understand that that will be the situation over the next four years. We are taking numerous other measures, including the national living wage and the childcare changes, to try to help these families in other ways. That is what we are doing with this freeze, and I urge the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this short debate. I thank my noble friend Lady Lister and the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, for highlighting the difficulties that the Government must have in understanding the implications of their decisions, since looking forward four years they have no way of knowing what economic conditions will prevail and what will happen to inflation.

I particularly want to thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham for making a very obvious point: that when this House voted on tax credits, the Chancellor was in position to make a difference. The reason why he was able to overturn that decision was that he found £27 billion down the back of the sofa. It is not impossible that there might be some more money down the sofa, if he shakes it hard enough. It is not impossible that, if all the boasts the Government make about the marvellous things happening to the economy come to pass, a couple of years down the line he may find the economic situation is looking good. If the economy is growing again, he may want to reconsider his decision not to share the proceeds of that growth with the poorest in our country. Why on earth would he want to tie his hands?

I would put money on it that if I asked the poorest people affected by this whether they would rather have the certainty of benefits falling in real terms year on year, or keep open the possibility that they will rise if the economy improves, most would be willing to take a chance—unless the Government are suggesting they would in fact cut them. All this amendment does is to allow the Government, if they wish to do so, to have exactly the same savings in four years’ time, but it would make them do two things. Every year, they would have to come back and look the country in the face, via this House, look at what people have to live on and explain their decision, and they would have to account for it. All they would have to do is to put it to both Houses of Parliament every year. What are they afraid of? People out there have suffered enough. The very least the Government can do is stand up for themselves. Given that we are in Committee, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.