Ukraine

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 24th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. He has huge expertise in this area and speaks with great authority. He is absolutely right. Russia’s assault on Ukraine is an unprovoked, premeditated attack against a sovereign, democratic state. As we have discussed in this House in recent weeks, the Russian Government have repeatedly denied their hostile intent towards Ukraine. At the same time, they have amassed troops, launched cyberattacks and staged false pretences and provocations. As the Statement made clear, unfortunately, the Russian Government seem to have shown that they were never serious about engaging in diplomacy. I thank the noble Lord for his comments. I entirely agree with him.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, when we eventually get the economic crime Bill, it and other similar legislation will be welcome, but critics would say that the challenge is enforcement. Do the Government plan to boost the resources of bodies such as the National Crime Agency, the Serious Fraud Office, HMRC and the Financial Conduct Authority to allow them to crack down on the abuses we see in London and the UK?

There is a very good article in the Telegraph today which reminds us that it is not just cash that is being invested in Londongrad:

“Russian reputations have also been polished, courtesy of London-based PR and libel law firms to whom the oligarchs pay generous fees”


to protect both their image and the Kremlin’s. Specifically, will the Government tackle the abuse of libel laws to stop this crushing of free speech and criticism?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. Before I answer her points, I should say that I was a bit out of touch. It looks as if the football tournament has already been moved. I was not aware of that. This is good news. I hope that my noble friend is pleased.

As the Statement mentioned, we are setting up a new, dedicated combating kleptocracy cell within the National Crime Agency. We have ensured that it is staffed with both the resources and the people it needs to do its important work. We have done a lot in this area. For instance, the Criminal Finances Act 2017 has allowed us massively to step up our recovery of criminal assets. We seized £1.3 billion between April 2015 and 2021. We have also conducted around 7,900 investigations. There have been 2,000 prosecutions and 1,400 convictions annually for stand-alone money laundering or where it was the principal offence. Our record shows that we are committed to putting money into this area. We have also committed £400 million to tackling economic crime during the next three years through our new anti-money laundering levy.

Ukraine Update

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

We have been working with partners through NATO, the UN, the OSCE and the G7—we are anticipating a further G7 call later this week—and obviously we have been having bilateral meetings with countries around the world. Ministers have talked to our allies in Kraków, Kyiv, Brussels, Tallinn, Munich and New York. We are working internationally and are co-ordinating our response with our allies and partners, for exactly the reasons the noble Lord gave.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I share the puzzlement of those who wonder what else President Putin has to do to get the full barrage of UK sanctions fired at him. The Statement says that he has

“flagrantly violated the Minsk peace agreements”.

The noble Baroness said that he has flagrantly violated Ukrainian sovereignty and the Statement says that

“the deployment of these forces in sovereign Ukrainian territory amounts to a renewed invasion of that country.”

What are the Government waiting for as a further threshold before there is a full barrage of sanctions? The Statement also says that, when the Defence Secretary and the Chief of the Defence Staff visited Moscow and talked to their counterparts, they demonstrated

“how seriously we take Russia’s security concerns”.

What are Russia’s valid security concerns? NATO is not going to invade it, so why are we taking its so-called security concerns at all seriously?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

What we have said, with our NATO allies, is that a dialogue would cover what Russia says it wants, from strategic nuclear weapons and force posture to exercises and incidents at sea. It is a serious offer which would improve European security for Russia and NATO, but we have been very clear that these talks must be based on de-escalation and an end to aggression against Ukraine.

University of Bristol: Jewish Students

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 24th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD) [V]]

My Lords, on that point of a welcoming environment for Jewish students, the University of Bristol, in a statement on its investigation, said that its,

“clear and consistently held position is that bullying, harassment, and discrimination are never acceptable. We remain committed to providing a positive experience for all our students and staff, including by providing a welcoming environment for Jewish students”.

That is not happening at that university and, sadly, at all too many other universities. In a debate in January initiated by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who follows me today, she said that some universities were becoming no-go areas for Jewish students. This is surely intolerable. There is a systemic problem here and I should like to hear the Minister say how he is going to tackle that on a—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

That is an extremely long question. Could I please ask noble Lords to keep their questions short, as a lot of people want to get in and express their views?

Global Britain

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I set out in my opening comments why this is happening now. I talked about the challenges of the pandemic and the way that that has shaped our view that these things need to be brought together internationally. I can certainly reassure the noble Baroness that girls’ education will remain a priority. I also point out that we are currently one of the few OECD donors that still has a separate development ministry. Other countries, such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand, have merged their functions effectively, and we will look to learn from them. We are extremely lucky to have a very high-quality Foreign Office and Department for International Development, which we can bring together to ensure that our expertise remains unparalleled in all areas.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I will follow up the comments from my noble friend Lord Newby. Why do the Government seem to regard support to countries such as Ukraine and those in the western Balkans as an alternative to support for the poorest countries in Africa? The UK currently supports those EU-aspirant countries through its own funding programmes, so all the UK will be doing is spending some of the much-vaunted so-called savings on EU contributions in a less efficient way. There is no need to deprive Zambia and Tanzania to do it. If we are to continue to operate under the OECD DAC rules, as the Government pledge, can the Minister explain what we are prevented from doing at the moment that this move will allow the UK Government to do?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, as I have said repeatedly, our view is that bringing diplomacy and international development together makes sense in our new complex global world. For instance, to protect ourselves against another pandemic, the UK will have to work alongside our friends to strengthen international bodies like the WHO, and help vulnerable countries come together to improve their health systems and achieve greater resilience. Therefore, it does not make sense to have a dichotomy and say that the two should be separate in our complex international world, with the challenges that we face.

Global Britain

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord obviously knows that the EU published its negotiating mandate only this morning. We will, of course, look in great detail at everything set out in it, as I am sure it will look at ours. I am sure that all negotiations will be done in good faith. We have an excellent international record: we are proud of our standing in human rights across the piece, both in the work that we do and in our support for the international rule of law. We would not want to do anything to put that in jeopardy.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister tell us how the categorical rejection of any regulatory alignment in the Statement squares with the robust commitments the Government signed up to in the political declaration to ensure a level playing field? Secondly, and related to it, the assertion that the UK will have separate and independent policies in areas such as data protection seems to contradict the assertion at the end of the Written Ministerial Statement that seems to expect an easy agreement for data adequacy assessment, because

“the UK will be operating exactly the same regulatory frameworks as the EU at the point of exit.”

Surely that is not the point. If the Government are saying that we have no intention of aligning dynamically in the longer term after we leave, surely that completely undermines any trust that the EU can have in our regulatory standards and means it is impossible for it to work on the basis of a level playing field.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

There is no requirement for alignment under the withdrawal agreement, and the political declaration sets out our commitment to discuss open and fair competition as part of negotiations on an ambitious future relationship. As the noble Baroness rightly says, we already start from a place of exceptionally high standards and we intend to maintain our standards in all these areas. In many instances we actually have higher standards than the EU and we do not need a treaty in order to do that. We are absolutely committed—we have made commitments time and again and have said repeatedly that we do not intend to lower our high standards; we intend to lead the world.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My noble friend will know that, as we have announced, the Bill will be published on Friday, so noble Lords will indeed have the chance to look at it. I am sure that, through the usual channels, we will be able to find time relatively soon after we come back from recess for noble Lords to air their views on the Bill once they see it.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, if we really had parliamentary sovereignty, would that not mean that the Government would respect and reflect in their policy the majority vote in the Commons to rule out no deal? As for a people’s vote, the Prime Minister’s recognition of the possibility is enough for me to win my long-standing bet—I should have made it for more than £5—with the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, but the failure to pledge it definitely is no better than the leader of the Opposition sitting on the fence. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, has, for the second time this week, acknowledged that there is headroom in the legislative timetable. That means that the Government’s claim that there is no time to legislate for a people’s vote is false. Will the Government now facilitate such legislation?

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 11th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister has made clear that, during the next phase of the negotiations, there will be a greater role for Parliament—and indeed civil society, trade unions and businesses—in discussing our future relationship. I will not promise my noble friend that it will be in the form of a Joint Committee, but the ways we can achieve that will certainly be considered and there will be discussions across both Houses to ensure that we have greater involvement in going forward.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, will the Leader of the House supply the clarification that my noble friend Lady Smith of Newnham did not receive? My noble friend asked how we can get ratification from the EU to be able to leave at 11 pm on 31 May, since the European Parliament will not be sitting from later this month until 2 July and has to give its consent. The noble Baroness answered by pointing to what she said was paragraph 10 of the Statement—I think it was paragraph 3 of the European Council conclusions she quoted from. That says:

“If the UK fails to live up to this obligation”—


the obligation to hold European Parliament elections—

“the withdrawal will take place on 1 June 2019”.

That curious assertion appears to suggest that it will impose a no-deal withdrawal on us. Will she, first, answer the question and, secondly, explain her under- standing of the end of paragraph 3 of the European Council conclusions?

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

What is right and in the interests of the country is what the Prime Minister has been working on for the past two years, which is to get a deal that leads to a strong partnership between the EU and the UK going forward. That is what she is focused on and will continue to focus on. We are having constructive discussions with EU member state leaders, the Commission and the Council in order to get to that point. That is what the Prime Minister is focused on and that is quite right.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, we are led to believe that the Prime Minister is turning over a new leaf, but the Statement ends by still talking about legally binding changes to the backstop. Given the Brady amendment, that is absolutely untrue, as my noble friend Lord Newby made clear. The wording of the Statement contradicts the idea that the backstop will be changed. Will the Minister convey to the Prime Minister that absolute honesty would be appreciated? Secondly, following on from what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, the Minister talked about the Government being responsible. According to the published analysis on no deal, we are looking at up to a 9% hit to GDP in 15 years and £13 billion of extra red tape costs on businesses that have never had to deal with customs processes before. How can she possibly contemplate inflicting no deal on the country and not taking it off the table?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have repeatedly said, the Prime Minister is looking at three options and discussing them with the EU. These are: the alternative arrangements, such as technological solutions; a legally binding time commitment to the existing backstop; and a legally binding unilateral exit clause to that backstop. That is what she has been talking to the EU about. The noble Baroness is right that the paper published this afternoon provides an honest assessment of the real challenges that no deal would bring. That is why we are working so hard to achieve a deal, and it would be great if noble Lords across the House would support us in that endeavour.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am obviously not going to prejudge what the House of Commons does, but the Motion that will be brought forward will be an amendable Motion, and obviously amendments can be put down and voted on, and we shall see what the House of Commons decides.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, would it not be more honourable for the Conservatives to acknowledge that it was the Liberal Democrats, especially Jo Swinson MP, who championed rights such as flexible working and shared parental leave as well as equal marriage, and that we had to fight like terriers against the Tory Beecroft review, which wanted to even abolish unfair dismissal rights? As for agency workers, what has stopped the Government from announcing the pay derogation before now? Why should anyone believe that the Tories have seen the light and are to be trusted on employment or environmental regulations?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sorry about the churlish tone that the noble Baroness has decided to take. We are committed to workers’ rights and environmental standards. We have made that clear regularly. Governments of all hues have done a lot of work in this area, and, as I have said, we have plans to repeal the Swedish derogation, which allows employers to pay their agency workers less. We are committed to enforcing holiday pay for the most vulnerable workers. We will continue to ensure that this Parliament champions workers’ rights, and that is something we are all proud of.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As we have repeatedly made clear, this is an insurance policy no one wants to use. It is needed in case the future relationship is not ready at the end of the implementation period to ensure that there is no hard border. However, as we have also made clear, it is not the only option. There is a possibility of a short extension to the implementation period. It has also been made clear in both the withdrawal agreement and political declaration that both sides will consider how facilitative arrangements and technologies can be used to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. There are other options that we will all be exploring rather than the backstop.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, there is an extraordinary sentence in the Statement that,

“if a future Parliament decided to then move from an initially deep trade relationship to a looser one, the backstop could not return”.

The Prime Minister rightly said that the EU would not have agreed any future partnership deal without the backstop but then this red meat is thrown to Brexiteers. If the backstop is superseded in the future by moving to a looser trade relationship, the Government will show themselves as being completely untrustworthy and saying, “Yah boo, the backstop cannot come back”. How is that generating trust in the long-term commitment of the Government to avoid a hard border in Ireland?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

It states in the documents that any backstop—which we have repeatedly made clear we do not want to be implemented—will be superseded by a future relationship. Both sides are signed up to that.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 22nd November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. There was a hope that an expansion of the political declaration would deliver enlightenment, but going from seven pages to 26 has illustrated even better how thin and inadequate our prospective future relationship is as impotent rule takers. The claim that we will make our own laws in our own Parliament is one of the deceptions that I mentioned the other day. We will in fact obey EU laws if we want decent access. This political declaration shows how there is no better deal than remaining in the European Union with a full voice and a great deal of influence. That is why we definitely need a people’s vote to give the opportunity to choose to remain in the EU.

It is notable how many uses there are in this document of considering options or exploring options with a view to identifying opportunities where something is in mutual interest to the extent possible. How long is a piece of string? This document does not answer that question. It is simply aspirational, not operational, and there are many gaps.

We are supposed to expect that the combination of at least a single customs territory—the political declaration talks about building on a single customs territory—and the alignment of rules can coexist with an independent trade policy, an end to free movement and an end to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. I shall come back to that latter point. This is an unstable and dishonest pretence that the package can deliver all those things.

Paragraph 28 of the draft states that,

“the extent of the United Kingdom’s commitments on customs and regulatory cooperation … would be taken into account in the application of related checks and controls”,

and that there can be,

“a spectrum of different outcomes for administrative processes as well as checks and controls”.

That is not what the Chequers White Paper promised. It promised to,

“avoid the need for customs and regulatory checks at the border”—

that is, all checks—and said it would,

“enable products to only undergo one set of approvals and authorisations in either market, before being sold in both”.

You do not need checks at the borders if that is the case. It promised to,

“protect the uniquely integrated supply chains and ‘just-in-time’ processes that have developed”,

over the last 40-odd years. I heard the Prime Minister claim in the other place that this political declaration represented frictionless trade. It does not; that is a completely groundless assertion. There will be border checks.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned, paragraph 24 talks about exploring,

“the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom authorities with Union agencies such as the European Medicines Agency … the… European Chemicals Agency … and the European Aviation Safety Agency”.

This is a very long way from the Chequers White Paper, which claimed that we would get participation in key agencies. That is not what the political declaration says. The same is true for Europol and Eurojust, where again there was a claim that we would get participation in those security agencies. Perhaps the Minister could explain the gap between the Chequers White Paper and what is in the political declaration. Working together to identify the extent of co-operation is not participation.

Perhaps the Minister could also explain how she envisages the financial services markets, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned. Currently there is a huge gap; one of the reasons Jo Johnson resigned is that 80% of our economy is not covered, while one of the reasons lots of City people oppose the deal is that equivalence in financial services is very weak indeed.

We also have a very thin promise on judicial co-operation, matrimonial and parental responsibility and related matters. I sit on a sub-committee of the EU Select Committee that has spent a great deal of time on this matter. I am afraid that the thin nature of the two and a half lines in the political declaration on this issue is testament to the lack of attention the Government are paying to this.

In the section on intellectual property, I see no reference to the Unified Patent Court. The Government put a lot of effort into securing the life sciences section of the UPC to be in the UK, which obviously plays to our strengths in that sector. Can they give us an assurance that Britain will be able to stay in the unified patent regulation and in the court even if we are outside the EU?

On the European Convention on Human Rights, there is an interesting contradiction in the declaration. Paragraph 7 refers only to the UK’s,

“continued commitment to respect the framework of the European Convention on Human Rights”.

What does that mean, as opposed to a commitment to the convention? Later, though, in paragraph 83, there is a reference to,

“continued adherence and giving effect to the ECHR”,

so I hope that paragraph 7 is just a slip of the pen. Perhaps the Minister could reassure us that there is a full commitment by the Government to stay a member of the ECHR.

Lastly, on ending the jurisdiction of the European court, the declaration says that the arbitration panel must refer any question of the interpretation of union law to the ECJ for a binding ruling. Then, it says:

“The arbitration panel should decide the dispute in accordance with the ruling given by the CJEU”—


that is, the binding ruling. If a party fails to comply, the other can seek financial compensation or suspend the rights and obligations under the agreement. How is that ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baronesses for their comments and shall try to cover the points they made. They both mentioned new arrangements in judicial co-operation in certain areas, particularly in relation to matrimonial matters and parental responsibility. I can also say that the UK intends to accede to the Lugano convention and looks forward to discussing its application with the EU and other contracting states in due course.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked about financial services, and the political declaration indeed contains important detail about co-operation. In particular, we have agreed to consultation mechanisms relating to the adoption, suspension and withdrawal of equivalence decisions. It also notes that both parties will keep their respective frameworks under review to ensure that they can continue to function effectively for both sides. We have agreed to negotiate new arrangements for financial services that provide for greater co-operation and consultation than is possible under existing third-country frameworks.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, talked about a blind Brexit, but in fact the political declaration sets out a clear vision for the UK’s future relationship with the EU and provides instructions for negotiators that will deliver a legal agreement by the end of 2020 covering an economic partnership, a security partnership and specific agreements on cross-cutting co-operation.

Both noble Baronesses talked about our security partnership, and the political declaration provides for UK co-operation through PNR, Prüm, Europol and Eurojust in future, but also ensures that the UK and EU’s future relationship will deliver capabilities approximate to those currently enabled by relevant EU mechanisms. The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked in particular about the European arrest warrant. Again, the declaration is clear that effective and streamlined surrender arrangements will be established, akin to the European arrest warrant and the EU’s arrangements with Norway and Iceland.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, also asked about the adequacy framework, and we have always said that we believe that the EU’s adequacy framework provided the right starting point for the arrangements that the UK and EU should agree on data protection, but that, reflecting the strength of the relationship, we wanted to go beyond an adequacy arrangement. We will therefore continue to consider additional arrangements, including co-operation between regulators, so our ambition remains.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked about the ECHR, and I can say once again that we are committed to the framework of the ECHR.

Both noble Baronesses asked about agencies. Where we want to continue co-operation with EU agencies—I think that the EMA and ECA were mentioned—we will certainly work with our European partners to explore it. If we have such a relationship, we have also made it clear that we will make an appropriate financial contribution.

I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that we continue to push for onward movement for EU nationals. Unfortunately, the EU did not want to include that in the political declaration, but we intend to return to it during the detailed talks on the future arrangements. In terms of next steps, once the political declaration has been endorsed by the Prime Minister and leaders of the EU member states, we will move from negotiating under Article 50 to negotiating under Article 218 of the TFEU. That can legally begin only once the UK has left the EU.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked about building on the single customs territory. What we mean by that is that in designing our long-term arrangements, we will make use, where appropriate, of what we have included in the withdrawal agreement. For example, we want to ensure that no tariffs, quotas, or checks on rules of origin are maintained for what is provided for under that agreement, but the text is also clear that whatever is agreed in our future partnership must recognise the development of an independent UK trade policy.

The political declaration also recognises that the UK may choose to align with the EU’s rules in relevant areas and that the application of checks and controls will depend on the UK’s commitment, including on the level of alignment. It recognises that both sides wish to be as ambitious as possible, but obviously we need to agree the balance of that as part of the forward negotiations. Once again, I must say to my Liberal Democrat colleagues that we will not be having a second vote. We have already had a people’s vote, and they voted to leave the EU.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Again, I am afraid that I disagree with the noble Lord. This deal is bringing back autonomy to this country, and it should be supported.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The EU proposal for a Northern Ireland-only customs solution has indeed been dropped and replaced by a UK-wide temporary customs arrangement which protects the integrity of the UK. However, there are regulatory elements necessary to avoid a hard border that will apply to Northern Ireland only, including product standards on industrial goods and agricultural products, as well as regulations strictly necessary to maintain the single electricity market on the island of Ireland. There are already some regulatory differences between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords—

October European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 22nd October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I hope that the noble Lord will be pleased to hear that in fact at the Council there was a lot of good will towards the UK and recognition around the table that in the past weeks there has been huge progress in agreeing the withdrawal agreement. The fact that I have made two Statements in the last two weeks discussing Northern Ireland in some detail shows that we are not hiding the fact that we still have an impasse in this situation. The Statements have been quite clear about that. What we are absolutely committed to, along with our EU partners, and particularly our Irish partners, is finding a way through, because as we said in the Statement this one issue is outstanding. We want a withdrawal agreement and an implementation period and we want a strong and positive relationship going forward. So I can assure the noble Lord that we are not taking things lightly; we are absolutely committed, with our partners, to cracking this very difficult nut, as he rightly says. We will do that and we will get a good deal with the EU, which is what we are intending to do.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, it is surely not good enough for the Leader of the House to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that she cannot answer his question. You do not need to be an insider in the negotiations to realise that it is complete nonsense to say that an extension of the transition period is an alternative to the existence of the backstop, whether it is Northern Ireland-specific or UK-wide. They are apples and pears, very obviously, and I want to press her on this point. It is a longer time, surely, to find a permanent relationship that makes the backstop redundant. Why do the Government continue to create smoke and mirrors, which presumably is for internal consumption in her own party but does not give honest, real explanations?

Secondly, if the Government want the temporary customs arrangement to be written into the withdrawal agreement as legally binding, how is that commensurate with their professed desire to maintain the ability to make a sovereign choice to exit from the temporary customs arrangement? If it is legally binding in the withdrawal agreement, as the Government want, how can you make a sovereign choice to abandon it?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I do not think it is appropriate for me to discuss the details of the negotiation. I am sorry that the noble Baroness disagrees, but we are at a crucial time and I do not think that my making statements from the Dispatch Box about some of these delicate issues will be particularly helpful. We want to achieve a deal, and I hope she understands that and would want to help me ensure that I play my part by not saying things that would get in the way of a good negotiation and a good outcome.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I disagree with the right reverend Prelate. We have made real progress on the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration on our future relationship. We have been clear, as we were in the Statement, that there are a couple of outstanding issues that we need to resolve, but we are moving forward and remain confident we will get a good deal for both sides.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness the Leader of the House explain how the furious No. 10 spin operation on speed of the last 24 hours has helped to achieve serious, calm progress in the negotiations? I read in the Evening Standard this afternoon of the Prime Minister hitting out at a secret new plan for a failsafe to avoid a hard border in Ireland. This is nothing new. It is just that the UK Government have failed to convince Brussels that their plans—we do not actually know what they are—will work. There is nothing new from what the Prime Minister agreed to last December. How does all the journalistic noise we have heard in the last 24 hours help? Would the Government not do better—as my noble friend Lord Newby suggested—by getting on with providing some facts, suggestions and concrete proposals?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have been consistently clear that we are committed to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That is not new. We have been consistently clear we want to preserve the economic integrity of the UK in all scenarios. That is not new. That is what we have been saying to the EU throughout. And we have been clear from the beginning: the backstop proposal is not acceptable to us. As the Statement makes clear, the EU have responded positively by agreeing to explore a UK-wide customs solution, and that is what we will continue to discuss over the coming days and weeks.

NATO Brussels Summit 2018

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 16th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are very clear that we have played a leading role in NATO and will continue to do so. We will obviously be looking to have a deep security partnership with Europe. We do many things bilaterally with the French and will continue to do so.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, in that specific context, the UK has always been a little stand-offish about EU defence co-operation, even though it is certainly set within NATO, and it has cold-shouldered Permanent Structured Cooperation, known as PESCO. However, I understand that a few weeks ago Defence Ministers agreed to support the European Intervention Initiative, or EII for short—there are a lot of acronyms—put forward by President Macron. I believe that the UK was one of the nine EU countries that signed up to this but I do not think we have heard a great deal about it. It is about joint European action in the event of emergencies and crises—a sort of coalition or club of the willing. Can the noble Baroness tell us a little more about it and will the Government advertise it? It is a good example of the UK’s willingness to take part in European defence co-operation, about which they are sometimes a little shy.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I cannot remember exactly when— I have repeated so many Statements recently—but I referred to it in a recent previous Statement, so there is some more information there. She is right that we were an initial signatory to the letter, along with, I think, eight other European countries. As I have explained to the House, I do not have the details with me today but I am happy to write to the noble Baroness. However, it is something that we discussed in response to a Statement a few weeks ago.

Exiting the EU

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sure that the noble Lord will be pleased to know that Malcolm Turnbull has welcomed the fact that we want to talk about joining the Trans-Pacific Partnership after we have completed our exit from the EU. There are certainly countries which are very keen to have trade relationships with us. In relation to his question about dispute resolution, where there is a dispute, it will be raised in a joint committee, which can refer a question to the CJEU only with the agreement of both parties. If the joint committee cannot resolve the dispute, it will go to independent arbitration. That mechanism respects our red line that the court of one party cannot resolve disputes between the two and the EU’s red line that the CJEU has to be the ultimate arbiter of EU law.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, can the Leader of the House confirm that there is a fig tree at Chequers? This position is one long series of fig leaves. It is surely a pretence that Westminster could make a sovereign choice to depart from an EU rule with only modest consequences, when in fact the whole house of cards in a legally binding treaty would collapse. It is surely a pretence that the autonomy of the UK’s legal order would be maintained, when in practice the ECJ would at the very least severely constrain it. Lastly, it is surely a pretence that the complicated and baroque customs model would be business-friendly. In fact, it is heavy with red tape and is a smugglers’ charter. Far from being a soft Brexit, is this not a fictional kind of Brexit, which the people should be able to reject in favour of remain?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I completely disagree with everything that the noble Baroness has just said.

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, in respect of that quote that the Minister has just given from paragraph 49 on the rules that support north/south co-operation and the all-Ireland economy, have the Government done a sectoral analysis or impact assessment on which aspects of the single market would not be covered by the commitment to “full alignment”? Presumably, it is a very wide field, covering agriculture, sanitary standards, consumer protection, transport, competition and environmental standards—I believe that about 142 issues were identified as being covered by north/south co-operation in Ireland. Which single market rules would not be covered by the promised full alignment? If they are rather small in number, would it not be simpler all round to stay in the single market and customs union, instead of things being so complicated?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that the noble Baroness’s question is predicated on us not reaching a suitable outcome that we all want. I just do not accept that.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his congratulations. They do not happen very often so I shall attempt to respond positively. I do not think it odd at all that our closest allies in relation to Iran are France and Germany. We are an international, global country and we have strong relationships across the world. Our three countries are all committed to the Iran deal, and it is working. The International Atomic Energy Agency has released eight reports on Iran’s nuclear programme since the implementation day of the joint comprehensive plan, all of which confirmed that Iran is fulfilling its obligations under the deal. The Prime Minister could not have been stronger in making that message clear and we were very pleased that the Council built on the joint statement made last week by the Prime Minister, Chancellor Merkel and President Macron, which reiterated our firm commitment to the nuclear deal. We will continue to support that.

In relation to the noble Lord’s second question, as I said in response to my noble friend Lord Lamont, the highest probability is that we will get a good deal but it is only right that we prepare for a no-deal situation. What we cannot and will not do is to publish information which will undermine our ability to negotiate that best deal for Britain.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Government claim that they are committed to European security arrangements and the free flow of data. How will they ensure that those continue if they pull out of reciprocity instruments, the European Charter of Fundamental Rights and the EU court’s jurisdiction? Those moves will all prejudice the vital, mutual recognition and adequacy assessments on which continued co-operation is in fact conditional.

Brexit: UK Plans

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord himself said, we have published two White Papers today, setting out our objectives for both the new customs arrangements and our future trade policy. Of course, we have a continuing dialogue with businesses involved in this and we will make sure that their voices are heard and any issues that they have are reflected in the work we do. But that is the reason we have published a White Paper, to make sure that that discussion is had.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, perhaps the Leader of the House could help me understand. There appears to be a contradiction between pages 1 and 3 of the Statement. On page 1 there is an insistence that,

“when we leave the European Union we will no longer be members of its single market or its customs union”;

then on page 3 it is asserted that the framework for the transition or implementation period would be,

“the existing structure of EU rules and regulations”.

That surely must mean the single market and the customs union. So how are we going to leave the single market and the customs union and stay in them in the transition period? I would welcome enlightenment.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We will be leaving the EU and its institutions in March 2019 but the fact is, at that point neither the UK nor the EU will be in a position to implement smoothly many of the detailed arrangements that will underpin this relationship. We want a strictly time-limited implementation period based on the existing structure of EU rules and regulations, during which the UK and EU would continue to have access to one another’s markets on current terms and the UK would take part in existing security measures. Because we want our departure to be as smooth as possible, it does not make sense to make people and businesses plan for two sets of changes in the relationship between the UK and the EU, and we should concentrate all our negotiating time on what matters: the long-term future relationship.

G20

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 10th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I made quite clear in my responses to the noble Baroness, we are at a very early stage. Working groups have been set up and discussions are going on, but we are at an early stage, and we shall continue to talk to the Americans.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement omitted something that was in the G20 leaders’ declaration—nothing to do with Brexit, for once: the growing threat that antimicrobial resistance represents to public health and economic development. The leaders made various recommendations, of which an important one was a new R&D collaboration hub and examining how to give incentives to encourage new antibiotics on to the market. I declare an interest in that my husband survived—just—a very serious case of sepsis. More than 40,000 people a year in this country die of sepsis. He also chairs a London health trust which deals with TB patients. Half of TB patients with resistance are in G20 countries. What are the Government going to do to follow up on that aspect of the summit?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. We made clear at the summit the imperative to tackle global health threats such as antimicrobial resistance, that research funding alone will not solve the problem and that we must in parallel develop incentives for pharmaceutical companies to bring new drugs to market. The publication of the G20-commissioned report, Tackling Antimicrobial Resistance, Ensuring Sustainable R&D, means that we have a clear way forward looking to the Argentinian G20 presidency next year and beyond. We will continue to work with our international partners on that. We have also committed £50 million towards a global AMR innovation fund, which will target investment in underinvested areas of research and development.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank my noble friend. The Government believe that we have set out a fair and serious offer. We have put a detailed proposal forward which will now be for negotiation. The next round of negotiation and discussion begins next month. We now have a fair and serious offer with which to begin our discussions.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness was keen to say that the residence documentation that EU citizens will be required to hold is not an ID card but a residence card backed by a biometric database. If and when EU citizens say that it is discriminatory to require them to hold ID cards, does this herald the backdoor introduction of a national ID card scheme, which was one of the issues which caused Secretary of State David Davis to resign in 2008, calling it an,

“insidious and relentless erosion of civil liberties”?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I have been pretty clear that we have said that once we leave the EU there will need to be a new settled status and documentation. I have been very clear as well that we have not specified exactly what that will be. However, I am sure that everyone will be pleased to know that the administration of the system will be streamlined and as user-friendly as possible, and that we intend to improve the process and remove some of the technical requirements currently needed to obtain permanent residence under EU rules, such as not requiring anyone to demonstrate that they have held comprehensive sickness insurance.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can certainly reassure the noble Lord that, although the findings of the public inquiry will of course feed into the work that we are doing, that work will not stop, and we are continuing to work on simplifying the guidance on the fire safety building regulations. Therefore, there will not be a stop on the action but the public inquiry will of course play an important part in helping us to ensure that we have a suitable response across all the issues that have led to this tragic accident.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[Lord Tugendhat (Con)]

My Lords, besides the issues of the public inquiry, it will also be necessary to look at the structure of local government taxation. Those of us who live in the middle of London—I live in the City of Westminster, not in the royal borough—are acutely aware of the very low differential between the taxes paid by those of us who live in desirable properties in desirable areas and the amount paid by people who live in less desirable properties in less desirable areas. There really ought to be a bigger bandwidth between the two.

Brexit: Triggering Article 50

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, the Statement repeats the mantra that we are going to “take back control”, but the Brexit Secretary, Mr Davis, expects the Government to use this control to continue with a large volume of EU migration. The Statement admits that the consequence of breaking the manifesto pledge to stay in the single market will mean UK companies having to abide by rules over which we have no influence. If we lose the right to the single market, including free movement for British citizens, at the price of less control and a series of betrayals, how is that a gain?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I completely disagree with the noble Baroness, who I know approaches this subject with a pessimistic view. We have an optimistic view and I believe that we will prevail.

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think all of us around the House share the noble Baroness’s concern. I am not aware that it was discussed, but obviously I was not there either. Perhaps I could confirm whether that is the case and let her know, but it was not on the formal agenda, no.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the Minister just referred to the aim of a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, and I wondered whether the Government have reflected on a couple of references in the summit conclusions to relations with trade partners. One said that,

“the EU has to equip itself with modernised … tools to tackle unfair trade practices and market distortions”.

Another said:

“The EU will be particularly vigilant concerning the respect and promotion of key standards”.


That was particularly directed at China, but it might well be directed at other trade partners. In the light of the threat by the Chancellor a couple of months ago suggesting an alternative economic model in the UK—generally thought to mean low tax and low regulatory standards—have the Government reflected on where it would lead in terms of undermining any ambition of a comprehensive FTA if we do not maintain high standards?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, as I have said, we anticipate a positive deal between us and the EU. Of course we start negotiations from the unique position of sharing many of the identical rules and regulations, so we are positive and optimistic going into these negotiations.

Informal European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I said in the Statement, the Prime Minister has said that our European partners want to get on with the negotiations. We all want to move on so that we can come to a good deal. As I have also said, we have been very clear that we believe the ban is divisive and wrong.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, will the noble Baroness the Leader of the House, whom I thank for repeating the Statement, tell us what words President Trump used when he gave his commitment to NATO? My understanding is that the Prime Minister said that he gave a 100% commitment to NATO, but I have not seen the words used by President Trump. It is rather similar to the occasion when Mr Gove asked the President whether Britain would be high up in the queue for a trade agreement. I do not think that I saw the words used. This is more than quibbling, because we need to know what the real commitment and intentions of the President of the United States are. Secondly, will the noble Baroness explain why it is a sequitur that, because we want an agreement with the 27 on acquired rights, the UK cannot therefore make a unilateral start on that? I suggest that that is just another pretext. If the UK showed good will by giving a unilateral guarantee, which morally and economically is the right thing to do, that would be the basis for an agreement. As the noble Baroness well knows, there is cross-party support in this House and way beyond it for the Government to do that rather than keep finding new excuses.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I was not in the room when President Trump and the Prime Minister had a conversation, I cannot give the noble Baroness a verbatim account. However, I can tell her what the Prime Minister has told us: that President Trump confirmed that he was 100% behind NATO. I believe that he nodded and agreed with that when he was standing at his podium. However, I am afraid that I was not there any more than she was.

As I have said, I cannot say any more about the situation regarding the status of EU nationals. We have been very clear that this is a priority for us and that we want to come to an agreement as quickly as possible. However, we also have to respect the position of our EU partners. We will try to address this issue very quickly. The Prime Minister has been extremely clear, as have I and all my Front Bench colleagues, that we hugely value the contribution of EU citizens here, and that this is a priority for us.

European Council: December 2016

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 19th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I mentioned in the Statement, we have been working hard to try to ensure that we disrupt smuggling. That is why we have been fulfilling our obligations as part of Operation Sophia to provide assistance to people in distress, respond to those in need and tackle the callous smugglers. Our Royal Navy and border forces have rescued more than 26,000 migrants.

On the noble Lord’s points about Turkey, we share concerns about the direction that Turkey has taken and are actively raising them with the Government. But, as the recent terrible terrorist attack in Istanbul has shown, Turkey is facing serious threats and we want to maintain a robust private dialogue and press Turkey to ensure that it understands the importance of its actions being measured, in line with its international obligations. I will have to write to the noble Lord on his question about Tunisia.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, the latest buzzword—or perhaps it is a buzz acronym—appears to be Smexit, which stands for the smooth and orderly Brexit which the Statement told us is the Government’s aim. Can the Leader of the House tell us whether this aim means that the Government are in fact united in wishing to see a transitional deal?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can tell the noble Baroness that we are united on delivering the best deal for this country.

United Kingdom: Single Market

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

[Baroness Ludford]

My Lords, clearly, when the Conservative Party offered the emphatic pledge of saying yes to the single market in its manifesto last year, as cited by my noble friend, it had in mind the national interest. Equally clearly, now the Conservative Government are focusing purely on their internal party interest. When will they get back to prioritising the interests and needs of the United Kingdom people and businesses, which means avoiding a destructive hard Brexit?

Brexit: Article 50

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 2nd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, has been attempting to get in. He will have a short question, then we will try to get a couple more questions in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, please, this is not helping. We know that this is an important issue but we get Questions on it nearly every day. It does not look good for the House. It is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

[Baroness Ludford]

Will the Minister please clarify whether the Conservatives still believe in parliamentary sovereignty, or in the radical left notion of popular sovereignty? The terms that the noble Baroness has just used about the instruction from the vote in the referendum, and statement from the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, that both Houses should respect the will of the people, speak of popular, not parliamentary, sovereignty. Do the Conservatives still believe in parliamentary sovereignty?

European Council

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Monday 24th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I mentioned in response to the noble Baroness, it was due to the UK that this issue was one of the main items on the agenda of this Council. I therefore assure the noble Lord that we continue to put pressure on and work with our European allies to make sure that we take a robust stance. The Prime Minister had discussions with Chancellor Merkel and President Hollande to ensure that we had a united and robust approach. We are standing with the EU in relation to sanctions placed on Russia in response to its aggression in the Ukraine. We and the EU have said that we will consider further options if the atrocities continue. We want to ensure a settlement and peace in Syria and are working very hard with our European colleagues and in the UN. On Friday, for instance, we secured an extraordinary session at the UN Human Rights Council to press for a ceasefire to enable humanitarian access to Aleppo. We are using all the international bodies we can to make sure our voice is heard and that Russia faces up to the consequences of its actions.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

My Lords, can the noble Baroness clarify a little more what the Statement means when it says that the Government will strike,

“a deal that will give British companies the maximum freedom to operate in the European market … a deal that will deliver the deepest possible cooperation to ensure our national security”?

Is not the maximum possible in both those areas—economy and security—secured by being in the EU? The next best might be in the single market. Had the Government adopted a much different tone in the last four months, instead of jumping to the tune of the hard Brexiteers in their ranks, could we not be in a very different place in terms of the maximum that could be secured? However, that maximum has been sacrificed to the appeasement of extremists in the Conservative Party, which is not going to work anyway.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I do not accept the premise of the noble Baroness’s question. We are very clear that we want a constructive and strong relationship with the EU when we leave. I am not going to presuppose what the detailed negotiations are going to do, but we have been very clear that we want a bespoke new relationship. No other country has left the EU so we are in a unique position to ensure that we can work with our European partners and allies, which have the same values and approach internationally as we do, to ensure that we have a strong relationship. We are confident that we will be able to achieve that. We all want to go in in a constructive way to ensure that we get the best deal for Britain but also the best deal for the EU.

G20 Summit

Debate between Baroness Evans of Bowes Park and Baroness Ludford

Wednesday 7th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I will have to write to the noble Lord on the specifics of his question. What I can certainly say is that the UK is an outward-facing, global nation and we want to be a global leader in free trade. We set out our determination to achieve that; the Prime Minister reiterated it in her Statement and in response to questions in the other place; we are focused on making sure that we make the best of Brexit for this country and work constructively, as we do now, with other countries around the world.

[Baroness Ludford (LD)]

A majority of those permitted to vote on 23 June voted to depart from the EU, but they were given no help whatever by the leave campaign to know what the destination thereafter would be and have been given no help since 23 June by the Government. We have heard the remarks about the Brexit Secretary being slapped down by the Prime Minister. In her response, the noble Baroness talked about trade with the single market, but that covers a multitude of possibilities. Can she be more specific about what that means? Does it mean membership of the single market or access to it, which is different? Where does it leave the customs union, for instance? Are the Government laying on a series of tutorials for Secretaries of State and Ministers on the difference between all those concepts, because many of them do not seem to understand them?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, as I think was clear from the Statement, we will not be providing a running commentary on what is happening. We want to get the best deal, and in order to get the best deal, as many noble Lords will know from their careers in business, you do not show your negotiating hand. What I have said is that the priority is to regain more control over the numbers of people coming here from Europe and, as the noble Baroness rightly said, to allow British companies to trade with the single market in goods and services.