Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Baroness Drake and Lord Touhig

Monday 28th November 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Drake]

I am still not persuaded. I will stay with my point; I still remain concerned about targets. The Minister says that he has turned his back on targets. I accept that, but his assurance does not bind future Secretaries of State, who may not turn their backs on targets. Once this provision is in the legislation it is there for future Ministers and Secretaries of State to use.

I come back to the point that one cannot take reasonable steps to deal with an error unless one knows that one has made an error. This is the weakness with the example of the dentist appointment. With that example, you know that you have an appointment and therefore are in trouble for failing to meet that appointment. You do not necessarily understand, comprehend or know that you have made an error, or you may not necessarily have intended to make an error, in the form that you have filled in.

The Minister says that the Government have amended their figures by raising from £15 to £65 the level at which overpayment action would be triggered and that the number of penalties has been moved down to 400,000. I still think that that is a very large number. The Minister expects that penalties will apply to only half that number—to 200,000. I still think that that is quite a large number. That is his expectation, but once that power is awarded who knows what the figures will become, how the guidance in the department will be enacted and what the resultant figures may be? I do not think that noble Lords can be asked to express their approval or otherwise of a clause in a piece of legislation simply on the expectation of how a Minister would choose to deploy that power. One has to stand back and ask what the power is that the Government are taking to themselves. I am still left with concerns.

The Minister said that the Bill provides the powers but that you do not have to use them. That is not a compelling argument for not worrying about this clause. I am no lawyer, but I thought that one of the points of having rational legislation is that it protects the citizen against irrational political behaviour. An argument based on a disposition to use or not use a power at any particular time by a given set of Ministers does not really address the merits of whether there should be such a clause in the Bill.

The other issue is the £50 itself. The impact assessment says that,

“a £50 flat rate was determined as an appropriate starting point for benefit claimants to encourage better care of their claim”.

As that says, it is a starting point. Who knows how, over time, that level of penalty will evolve?

The Minister made the point that there will not be a scattergun approach to the civil penalty but that there will be clusters of mistakes on which the focus will be. That is good. If there are clusters of mistakes, it sounds dreadfully efficient to concentrate on them, but that is no reason for introducing a civil penalty; it is a reason for looking at managerial action or process or procedure, or focusing resources to address those clusters. Simply saying that every benefit claimant who does not fill out their form properly will now be subjected to the potential powers of a civil penalty seems a slightly over-the-top response to dealing with clusters of mistakes.

With all due respect, we have clusters of errors by the department and by local authorities. There are significant errors. I cannot believe that there would in the same way be penalties on staff who make those errors, and I would be completely opposed to that too. Errors often occur in the system for systemic reasons. That is different from fraud or from somebody knowingly tweaking their form or deliberately filling it in incorrectly in order to tip the benefit advantage in their favour.

[Lord Touhig]

Could my noble friend say—perhaps in response to the Minister’s answer to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, when he said that it would depend upon the circumstances, and following on the point just made by my noble friend—whether she thinks it would be helpful if the Minister, before Report, could provide us with the number of cases in which the department has accepted that an overpayment has been its fault and has not pursued it, and the number of occasions on which it has found that it has been the client’s fault and pursued that?