Recycling
Debate between Baroness Deech and Lord Gardiner of Kimble(5 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, that is why we have committed in our resources and waste strategy to reforming current packaging producer responsibility systems. The measures that we wish to bring forward will incentivise producers to make much more sustainable decisions at design stage and point of manufacture. This is consistent with the “polluter pays” principle. We want producers to be more responsible for the full costs of managing their packaging.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, should not this House be leading the way in reducing the use of plastic? Virtually all the mail that comes home from this House, especially during the Recess, is in heavy plastic—magazines arrive wrapped in plastic—and I hope the Government will encourage the authorities to stop doing that.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, obviously both Houses are aiming to eliminate avoidable single-use plastic by this year. I am mindful of what the noble Baroness has said and in Defra and across Whitehall we are all seeking to reduce the use of plastic. It is a very good point.
Press Regulation
Debate between Baroness Deech and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Baroness Deech
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they expect the new system of press regulation set out in the royal charter agreed on 30 October to be implemented.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)
The appointments process for the chair and initial board members of the recognition panel can begin following the sealing of the charter, which we expect to occur shortly. The panel will be formally established from the date on which the chair and the initial members of the board of the recognition panel have been appointed. It is for the newspaper industry to design its own new self-regulator.
Baroness Deech (CB)
Is the Minister not concerned that, more than a year after the Leveson report, we seem no nearer an improved system of redress and apology? Does he agree that the Government are presiding over an impasse? We have the worst of both worlds: there is no effective press regulation at the moment and, because of the undemocratic use of the royal charter as a tool, input and scrutiny into the system by this House have been blocked.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
The noble Baroness made a number of points. To start with the last one, the royal charter was felt in the end to be the appropriate route by all the parties, and by others more widely, precisely so that there was not seen to be any intrusion into the very valuable tenet that we should have a free press and freedom of expression. The architecture of Lord Justice Leveson was designed to have a new, independent, self-regulatory body and a recognition panel to oversee that body and to make sure that it adheres. It is for the self-regulatory body to apply or not—it will be voluntary. However, I do not think there is an impasse because there is an understanding that what we had before must never return.
Press Regulation
Debate between Baroness Deech and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, the first thing to say is that we are having a royal charter precisely because state regulation is not an option that the country or indeed parliamentarians generally wish to travel towards. As the noble Lord has raised the point about the Daily Mail, I think that honest exchanges and robust differences of view are all legitimate, but I have always thought that they should be done in a civil manner. I do not think that what happened with the Leader of the Opposition and the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday was civil.
Baroness Deech (CB)
My Lords, has legal advice been taken about the statutory underpinning of the charter? My recollection is that it says that the charter cannot be changed without a two-thirds majority in Parliament. In the very first lesson that law undergraduates ever have, one learns that one Parliament cannot bind another. No amount of saying that there needs to be a two-thirds majority can stand up if a future Parliament simply decides to change it. Has advice been taken on that?
Secondly, because everything seems to be going one way, is there a note of balance in this? It is, after all, our press that uncovered the so-called MPs’ expenses scandal. Our press investigated ill-doing in hospitals and old-age homes for the benefit of those in them even though some may say that they were being victimised by being uncovered. Our press uncovered the thalidomide scandal, perhaps the root of all our acknowledgement of investigative journalism in the past 30 years or so.
Some are fearful that investigative journalism of a very robust nature may become overshadowed if this is not fully taken account of in the royal charter, which one hopes is a cross-party initiative and not one unduly influenced by lobbyists.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
The first thing to say to the noble Baroness is that yes this is a cross-party charter—very much so. There have been robust exchanges with party leaders and parliamentarians across the parties trying to seek some resolution. I absolutely do not think that the whole process is seeking to stop the press in its legitimate task of holding us to account, holding institutions to account and ensuring that wrongdoing is exposed. That is the very essence of why we should champion a free press. But what has happened and why we are here is that elements of the press have been hugely irresponsible and worse.
Arbitration and Mediation Services (Equality) Bill [HL]
Debate between Baroness Deech and Lord Gardiner of Kimble
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for bringing this matter for debate in the House today and explaining why she wants to see the measures in her Bill come into force. Her support of women’s rights across the world is well recognised and I admire her courage and determination in seeking decency and justice.
I have listened carefully to all the points that noble Lords have made, yet the Government have reservations as to whether the measures in the Bill are the best way forward, some of which have already been articulated sensitively by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Manchester.
The noble Baroness’s Bill is driven by the concern that all citizens should have the same rights. It has been suggested that religious law principles applied by arbitral tribunals and religious councils in this country may undermine the principle of equal rights under the law. Let me make it quite clear that religious principles can be applied legally in the national courts context only if both sides have freely agreed to be bound by them. Regardless of religious belief, every citizen is equal before the law.
The Bill prohibits the use of arbitration in family disputes. The Government, like their predecessors, are keen to promote the use of non-court dispute resolution services for family and other disputes. Typically this is through mediation. However, couples, communities and other groups have the option to use arbitration and to apply religious considerations. For example, the Jewish Beth Din has long been recognised as able to conduct arbitrations applying Jewish law considerations. The Muslim Arbitration Tribunal, established in 2007, provides an alternative route to resolve civil law disputes in accordance with Sharia principles. In both cases this is because the Arbitration Act 1996 allows parties to an arbitration to agree any system of law or rules, other than national laws, to be applied by the arbitral tribunal. Crucially, both parties must freely have agreed to arbitration and to the use of religious principles. Even where religious law considerations have been applied to an arbitration, the resulting decisions are subject to review by the national courts on a number of grounds, including whether the agreement was freely concluded.
Religious councils that are not governed by the provisions of the Arbitration Act are different. The recommendations of religious councils such as Sharia councils and the marriage tribunal in the Catholic Church are not binding in law because of this. Such recommendations are subject to the law of the land.
The noble Baroness raised concerns over coercion. No one should feel pressurised or coerced into using a Sharia or other religious council to resolve their dispute. Any member of any community has the right to refer to a civil court at any point, particularly if they feel pressured or coerced to resolve an issue in a particular way. If there has been coercion, the outcome of any mediation or arbitration cannot be enforced.
The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, has raised concerns about religious councils adjudicating on matters of domestic violence and violence against women. Quite clearly domestic violence is a dreadful form of abuse and is unacceptable in our society. We are determined to do all we can to tackle it and the Government’s approach is set out in the action plan Call to End Violence Against Women and Girls. It is essential that victims and potential victims are aware of the support and advice available. Indeed, the Government have been working with many groups on this. The Government are working with statutory, faith and other organisations to ensure that messages reach across all communities.
Many of the issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, raises are already addressed in existing legislation. For example, the Equality Act prohibits discrimination on the grounds of sex. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act prohibits intimidation of all witnesses. Common law already restricts what can be arbitrated and the Government have no plans to change this. Several noble Lords raised consent orders being checked by the courts. The court is under a duty to question any order which appears unfair and can refuse to make the order.
Turning to the specific proposals in the Bill—and answering the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton— in Part 1 changing the Equality Act so that it applies to arbitral tribunals is considered unnecessary. Under the Arbitration Act tribunals must act fairly and impartially. Awards can be challenged in court if this duty is breached or there is other irregularity. Section 142(1) of the Equality Act already makes contracts unenforceable if they treat someone in a discriminatory way. This would apply to the results of mediations facilitated by a religious council if they were discriminatory. A consultation under Section 149 of the Equality Act is under way to establish whether the public sector equality duty that it creates is operating as intended. It would be wrong to amend Section 149 while the Government are carrying out such a review.
Turning to Part 2 of this Bill, arbitral tribunals must act fairly and impartially and can apply religious considerations only if all parties agree. It is already the common law that criminal acts and some family matters, such as child residence and contact, cannot be arbitrated. As I said, it is government policy to encourage alternative dispute resolution, including arbitration in limited circumstances to resolve family matters. However, it is important for people to be aware of their rights under our country’s legal system. In Part 3, the proposed changes to the Family Law Act 1996 are deemed unnecessary, as contracts are unenforceable if made under duress. The judge will not make an order unless he or she is satisfied that there was consent and equal bargaining power between the parties.
In Part 4, Section 51 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act already makes it an offence to intimidate those assisting an investigation, witnesses and potential witnesses. This includes victims of domestic violence.
In Part 5, I finally turn to the proposed new crime of falsely claiming legal jurisdiction. The Government believe that introducing the proposed offences is unnecessary. This is because Sharia councils and other religious councils have no jurisdiction in this country, therefore any decision they make can never be legally binding. If any decisions or recommendations made by any religious councils or arbitration tribunals were illegal or contrary to public policy or national law, then national law would always prevail.
Baroness Deech
The noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, has said more than once that if something improper happened in a religious court, the courts of the land would ignore it or undo it. Is not the problem that those who have these religious orders made will never know about the courts of our land or will never get to them? Therefore the English courts do not have the supervisory power that the Minister has suggested and which we wish they had.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, because that is precisely what I wish to come to. I was setting out what I call the legalistic frame of why the Government have reservations about the Bill’s provisions, but I assure the noble Baroness that there is much more to come.
Increased awareness requires changes to society, not changes to the law. This means that it is not just a job for the Government. Communities and community organisations must also give a lead in communicating so that the rights of all our citizens are understood and protected. The Government are committed to working with communities and faith groups to take this forward. Practical co-operation between faith groups is crucial to the integrated society we want to build. It is about people from different backgrounds working together for a common good and tackling shared social problems.
The Government work with many faith bodies: the Church of England, the Catholic Bishops’ Conference, the Board of Deputies of British Jews, the Network of Sikh Organisations UK and national Muslim organisations including the British Muslim Forum, Muslim Hands UK and the Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board. Perhaps I may also say, as noble Lords have referred to the Southall Black Sisters, that the Government have worked in conjunction with that organisation and others to raise the points made particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and other noble Lords, and in formulating, among other things, an information pack to ensure that rights are better and more widely known.
Noble Lords have also highlighted their concern about those Muslim marriages which are not registered. These are not legally valid in England and Wales and do not enable parties to seek a financial settlement in the family court if the marriage breaks down. The Government are aware of the problem and the great hardship it can cause. As a result, the Government are examining ways to increase awareness of the legal consequences of religious-only marriages so as to ensure that the rights of families and children are protected. The Department for Communities and Local Government also works with local bodies such as the St Philip’s Centre in Leicester and the East London Three Faiths Forum. These bodies, along with many others, do excellent work to encourage and help link up faith-based social action, including people from different ethnic, religious and cultural backgrounds.
For all the reasons I have set out, the Government are not convinced that introducing the measures proposed in this Bill—