European Union: Border Control Checks

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 16th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I am not sure that I share the characterisation that Northern Ireland is both part of the United Kingdom and part of the EU. It is certainly in a somewhat different position as regards goods trade. Northern Ireland is a very successful part of the United Kingdom, has some great companies and has a very bright future. I am very happy that, as the FT article noted, it has grown well. Nevertheless, the burdens of the protocol are significant and will probably grow over time, so we need to find a solution.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, this continued failure to reach a stable agreement with the EU is expensive for business and the UK taxpayer. We have one set of checks that were postponed back in September, another waived in December and others that are still due to come into force. The Government are spending £360 million on trader support, £150 million on digital agri-food certification and IT systems and £50 million on checking facilities. What is the Minister’s assessment of how much of this money we would get back should he trigger Article 16?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I think it is reasonable that we should bring in controls as we see fit, in a staged and controlled way over time, so that companies have time to adjust to them. That staging means that the process is spread over a year or two, but that is reasonable and makes life as easy as it can be for businesses both exporting and importing.

The noble Baroness is correct to refer to the substantial sums we have spent on implementing the Northern Ireland protocol. That demonstrates that the accusation sometimes made against us that we are not interested in implementing the protocol is not correct. We have spent a lot of money in an attempt to mitigate the burdens, but there are obviously simpler ways of mitigating the burdens than requiring every good moving to Northern Ireland to go through a customs process and paying the heavy costs of that—and it is those new solutions that I hope we can find in the coming months.

EU–UK Partnership Council

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 16th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I of course very much agree with my noble friend’s question, and she is right to refer to the spirit of constructiveness. It is natural that the disputes catch attention, but it is worth dwelling on the fact that a huge amount of business in this very wide-ranging trade and co-operation agreement is carrying on satisfactorily. I hope that the same spirit might be shown in the ongoing discussions on the Northern Ireland protocol, which no doubt we will touch on.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the key word in my noble friend’s Question is “partnership”. Both our economy and our place in the world will be stronger if disputes can be resolved amicably. Some commentators have likened the Minister’s negotiating strategy to puffing out his chest for weeks or months before finally getting down to the serious business of achieving consensus. On the issue of Northern Ireland, will he assure us that he is not intending to use the issue of the supply of medicines to the people of Northern Ireland as leverage in his negotiations?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, there has been a lot of discussion of my negotiating strategy over the last two and a half years. The fact that we achieved the broadest, most wide-ranging and most comprehensive trade and co-operation agreement ever reached is testimony to my wish to achieve partnership with the EU. On the issue of medicines, we continue to be in discussion with the EU on this subject, and I will talk again to Maroš Šefčovič tomorrow. I am not convinced that we are going to reach agreement on it by the end of the year, but we will try. Of course, it is a national priority that medicines should be available in Northern Ireland, as they are everywhere else in the UK.

Northern Ireland: Supply of Medicines

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 9th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, that might indeed be a solution; it has not been part of the discussions so far, and I think that the regulators on both sides guard their discretion closely and the ability to proceed at the speeds that they think best, as we have seen this year on vaccine licensing.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, there can be no question of any interruption to the supply of medicines to Northern Ireland. This is urgent for the UK, but we should remember that the EU needs to resolve this issue for Malta and Cyprus as well. Patients, their families and clinicians need certainty. Will the Minister confirm that he is not taking a “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” approach? The EU needs to resolve this issue on behalf of member states and is likely to present further suggestions imminently. Does he accept that supply of medicines should be dealt with as a priority and, if necessary, separately from other Northern Ireland protocol issues?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I repeat that the Government will not allow there to be any disruption to supply of medicines to Northern Ireland; that is an absolute obligation on us. Of course, medicines are only one of many problems that we have put on the table. They are a special case, if you like, of the issue of supply of goods more generally to Northern Ireland, so the matter cannot be seen entirely in isolation but needs to be solved as part of many of the other difficulties on the protocol.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Court of Justice of the European Union

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not the only one scratching my head as a result of these exchanges. Can the Minister help us by outlining what the benefit to the UK position of triggering Article 16 would be? Surely it would only set the clock ticking and increase the pressure, while he would be negotiating on the exact same issues with the exact same people, probably in the exact same rooms. What do we gain by triggering Article 16?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, Article 16 is a safeguard. It changes reality because it enables us to safeguard, within the provisions of the protocol, against certain effects of the way that it is currently being implemented and working out. Of course, it begins a new and slightly different phase if Article 16 is used, but it also creates a new reality and safeguards against some of the difficulties that we currently find. That is why it is such a relevant provision.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: EU Negotiations

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, it is shameful that we have come to this today. Last week, the Minister came to this House and committed to ensuring that an equivalent Oral Statement would be made in the other place to reflect his remarks here last Wednesday. That did not take place; instead, the Government attempted to get by with a Written Statement issued on Tuesday, and the words that we have heard today in the other place were only as a consequence of the Minister there being dragged there in response to an Urgent Question. That is not good enough. These issues are of intense interest to Members on all sides of this House and the elected House. It is essential that we do not have this situation again. If the Minister wants to come here and make a Statement then he must ensure, as he promised, that a Statement is made in the equivalent way in the other House at the earliest opportunity.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is of course correct that I said on Wednesday that a Statement would be made in the other place in due course and that it was made in the way that she describes. How the other place runs its business and chooses its Statements is obviously not a matter for this House. Obviously, I respect the right and responsibility of the Opposition to hold the Government to account, which is why I am here today answering five Questions on very similar subjects, and will continue to do so as long as it is necessary.

Ireland/Northern Ireland: Solid Fuels

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend makes a very good point, as always. It is a concrete case that demonstrates that it is possible to manage these matters in other ways. This is one of the reasons why what we put forward in the Command Paper is a compromise. It is not my noble friend’s proposal. It is that we would for most purposes police goods going into Ireland and the single market in the Irish Sea, but would wish to see goods flowing freely into Northern Ireland. That is a workable and sensible compromise proposal, and in the negotiations we have not yet heard why it could not work.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, this situation rather highlights the need for a certain amount of bandwidth on behalf of the Government, in that occasionally they need to negotiate simultaneously with the EU and with individual member states. Does the Minister think that the undeniable damage to the Prime Minister’s authority in recent weeks is leading to a bit of a problem with government bandwidth? I ask this because it is really easy to talk tough about Article 16, at least when he is here, but not if the Minister and the Prime Minister do not have the backing of the entire Cabinet to see through the consequences, which would be further damage to international relationships and possibly a trade war. Is he confident that any of his Cabinet colleagues will be with him in the trenches if he leads us into further disputes?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the Cabinet and the Government stand fully behind the policy that we set out in the Command Paper in July, which is a very good compromise policy that we still hope to negotiate. We have made it clear that a negotiated outcome is the best one, but that policy paper, which we all stand behind, also makes it clear that Article 16 is a legitimate and useful tool if necessary. That remains the Government’s position.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Impact on UK Internal Market

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the trade and co-operation agreement and the withdrawal agreement are obviously separate. I have said that the difficulties we are having on the protocol are at the heart of some of the broader mistrusts that exist in the process at the moment. That said, the implementation of the TCA is going well. The specialised committees have largely met. The trade committee met earlier this week and, despite difficulties on issues such as fisheries, we are nevertheless implementing the TCA well and effectively, and the processes are working well.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a problem here, because the response the Minister gave to the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, seems to contradict the impression given to the UK and European media—and Simon Coveney, who said that he welcomed the change of tone from the Minister and anticipated that with political will, this issue could be resolved by Christmas. Earlier, I implied that the Minister was not in the mood for answering questions today. Can he prove me wrong by giving us his percentage assessment of the chances of success by Christmas?

Retained EU Law

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 18th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a very good question. It is indeed one of the difficulties with the protocol, as constructed, that EU law, in areas of the single market for goods, is imposed without any agreement by the institutions in Northern Ireland. That is a situation we are seeking to remedy in the negotiations I am currently conducting.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister is being rather slippery in his responses to questions about retained EU law. The reason I say this is that we were promised—in the other place at least and, I am sure, in here too—that changes to retained EU law would be subject to primary legislation, and I can remember vividly Secretaries of State Raab, Barclay and Davis saying in terms at the Dispatch Box that this would be the case. Is the Minister now overriding that commitment?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

A number of things have happened since those commitments were made, including a general election, which we won with a clear set of policies. Our policy on this matter was as I set out on 16 September in my Statement, and we are considering the best way of delivering that policy.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: EU Proposals

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 21st October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I take it from the answers the Minister provided to the previous Question that he did not consult Ministers in Northern Ireland about his new draft text and does not intend to publish it for the benefit of politicians in this country. I gently say to him that contentious issues in Northern Ireland are never resolved without the engagement of senior figures, and he needs to take this far more seriously. Rather than flying around Europe making speeches, why is he not speaking with Mr Šefčovič in Belfast to thrash out these issues? The people of Northern Ireland and the public here will tire of this endless Brexit drama vortex that he seems to want to keep us captured in. We want solutions and he will find them only through dialogue, and I suggest that that should take place in Belfast.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, we are obviously engaged in a very intensive dialogue on this question, both at my level and among teams and beyond that. As I said, obviously we talk to senior politicians in Northern Ireland across the range of opinion the whole time, and that is the responsibility of others in this Government as well as myself. We will publish the legal text if it is useful to the process, just as we did last year in negotiations on the trade and co-operation agreement. When it is useful and when it can help to get us closer to agreement then we will consider doing that, but at the moment it is a confidential negotiating document.

Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland: Impact on Trade

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 21st October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I am proud of securing a deal that delivered democracy and took this country out of the European Union in 2019, which the people of this country voted for. On trade, the figures from the Irish Central Statistics Office for the first eight months of the year show that trade from Ireland to Northern Ireland has gone up 35% and from Northern Ireland to Ireland has gone up 50%. Those are significant figures and clearly show that there is something unusual going on—which I think is trade diversion.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I have a couple of very simple questions for the Minister about this. I tried to ask them last week, after he flew back from Lisbon, but he did not seem to want to answer them then. I shall try again today. They are very simple.

First, the Minister has sent a draft legal text of the protocol, which he says he has written, to Brussels. He does not want to show his cards on other issues but, seeing that he has already shown the text to Brussels, why is he not showing it to parliamentarians in the UK? Secondly, it is very important that he engages meaningfully and fully with elected politicians in Northern Ireland on this issue. Did he consult any Ministers in the Northern Ireland Assembly before he sent his draft text of the Northern Ireland protocol to Brussels?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I think the question is based on a slight misconception that the legal text that we sent in represents some new stage or evolution in our position. It does not. It reflects the position that was set out in the Command Paper on 21 July and puts it into legal form. It is a negotiating document for the purposes of negotiations. It does not change the UK Government’s position in any way. Of course we discuss with elected politicians in Northern Ireland all the time what our position is, and we did that while preparing the Command Paper.

Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Wednesday 13th October 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, there is quite a lot in that question but I will try to deal with the two points. We talk to people of all opinions across the spectrum of political opinion in Northern Ireland. In doing so, I personally have heard quite a lot of concern about the imposition of European Union law in Northern Ireland without democratic consent; of course, the Court of Justice stands at the apex of that system.

On the second question, we set out our approach in the Command Paper. I do not think that there is much more to say. We have been clear that the threshold for using Article 16 has passed; Article 16 is a mechanism in the protocol whose use is legitimate if the circumstances require it. We would prefer to find a solution by consensus but Article 16 is there.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Minister back from his brief stop in Portugal yesterday. I note that your Lordships’ House was sitting then; we too would have appreciated hearing from him as he announced his new text.

Although we welcome the opportunity to hear from the Minister this afternoon, it is a shame that this Question is taking place at 3.45 pm, given that the EU’s proposals for amending the protocol are due to be published in just two hours’ time. Can the Minister confirm that he will consider the EU’s proposals in good faith, and that the Government will engage constructively in finding solutions to protect livelihoods and communities in Northern Ireland? In his speech yesterday, the Minister said that he has drafted a new protocol. When will we see the legal text? Given the direct importance of this process for the people of Northern Ireland, has he consulted Northern Ireland Ministers on his text?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, my speech in Lisbon yesterday covered much more than the Northern Ireland protocol. I am sure that the noble Lords who have read it have seen that it was an attempt to set out our wider relationship with the European Union; the protocol policy was as set out in the Command Paper. I agree that we are looking forward to getting the proposals from the Commission later today. Obviously we will look at them positively and constructively; I am sure that we will want to discuss elements of them in more detail. We very much want to get into an intensive talks process on those proposals, as well as on the proposals we sent. As the noble Baroness points out, we have sent a draft of the legal text to the Commission. It is a negotiating document at the moment but, of course, I expect that we will make it public if that seems to be useful to the process in future.

Imports from EU to UK: Grace Period

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 16th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

Of course, I agree very much with the thrust of my noble friend’s question. We believe that in the decisions we have taken, both in the context of the protocol and on trade more broadly, we are showing pragmatism in the way we are managing our borders, with a due focus on the real levels of risk involved. We hope that the European Union will do the same in the context of Northern Ireland and allow us to put in place arrangements, as set out in our Command Paper, that are consistent with those levels of risk.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

My Lords, it is striking that none of the problems raised is anything to do with the Minister or with the Government; it is all about Covid, the French, the Irish or the EU, but the nation is starting to suss this out. The Food and Drink Federation said just this week that the Government are undermining trust and confidence, because responsible businesses prepare for changes that repeatedly do not happen. Frustration is growing. Food and drink is Britain’s biggest manufacturing sector, employing people in every region, and it needs certainty. Does the Minister accept that if we do not reach a lasting agreement soon, these stopgap solutions will cost jobs?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, we have great food and drink industries in this country; some of them have imports in their supply chains as well as exports and the free flow of trade in both directions is very important. I have noted what the Food and Drink Federation has said on this subject. I could not help noting that, last week, it was worrying about the consequences of introducing these controls and fearing that the just-in-time system would not work, while, this week, it is concerned that we have delayed the controls, so I think we just have to take the best decisions we can in the interests of the whole economy and enable our businesses to prosper as a result.

Brexit Opportunities Unit

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Monday 19th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, as one would expect, the Government have a single voice on these questions. We are all focused on the ability to deliver the opportunities of Brexit. It is my job to make sure that many of those things happen with this new director when we appoint him or her. On trade, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade is focused on the issues that the noble Viscount mentioned. In particular, we have applied to join the CPTPP; we have published our prospectus for that and look forward to continuing those negotiations this year.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

One of the problems that the Minister has is that he cannot even guarantee free trade within the United Kingdom at the moment. However, let us be positive. In referring to his new unit, the Minister said that he is fully behind making things happen and is prepared to look at government procurement. I welcome that. He will know that Keir Starmer recently launched a “Buy British” campaign, which included giving more public contracts to British companies and requiring public bodies to report how much they buy from British companies. To ensure that his new unit has an impact and is not all hype, will the Minister back our proposals for a “Buy British” campaign?

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is of course right to underline the importance of procurement reform for our objectives. We have made clear that we wish to take forward a procurement Bill, which will radically simplify the arrangements that we have inherited from the European Union. We are bound by the Agreement on Government Procurement at the WTO as well as any procurement arrangements in our free trade agreements; our procurement policies have to fit within all those agreements.

Post-Brexit Financial Settlement

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

This is one of the occasions when I can disclaim direct responsibility for that particular part of the negotiation in the previous withdrawal agreement. I have been known to be a little uncharitable at times about every aspect of the work that was done by my predecessors but, in this case, on the withdrawal agreement, they did a good job. Given the legal framework and commitments, it was always likely that the outcome would be in this broad area.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The Minister negotiated at length to agree a formula for calculating the UK’s contribution. Whatever we think of the amount, there was some degree of transparency in this. In the interests of transparency, can the Minister tell us whether he played any role in advancing the interests of Aquind Ltd, owned by a former Russian executive, in the Brexit negotiations? I would welcome an answer to my letter to him on this important matter, but perhaps he could tell the House now whether he ever raised the Aquind project in negotiations with the EU.

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Baroness to the Front Bench. I look forward to debating such issues with her on what I hope are many occasions in the future. The link between the EU budget and the question she asks is possibly a little tenuous, but nevertheless I am happy to say that I received her letter and obviously will reply shortly. I have never met Mr Temerko and I have no recollection of discussing his business with any Ministers or anybody else. We are establishing what correspondence, if any, there was with me or my office last year, and will reply.

Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Frost

Thursday 15th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Frost (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very good point. The balance of advantages and benefits in the protocol is not solely economic, although the economic links are clearly very strong with Great Britain. They are to do with society, politics and the sense of identity, which, it seems, has been undermined in places by the operation of the protocol. It is reasonable to take that into account in our overall assessment. Diversion of trade, societal disturbances and so on are obviously very important factors when we come to consider what action is necessary in this matter.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Minister told the Northern Ireland Sub-Committee that in his view the protocol was causing societal disruption and weakening of identity, as well as trade friction. If he is right, it is vital that Her Majesty’s Government do nothing to make that precarious situation worse. Does he agree that any trade arrangements involving significant relaxation of import checks could make his problems with the protocol harder to resolve, and will he therefore ensure that the impact on communities in Northern Ireland is properly taken into account by his colleague, the International Trade Secretary?