Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Addington

Committee stage & Lords Hansard - Part 1
Wednesday 15th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I will press the Minister. Should those amendments that she comes back with on Report, which is how I interpret what she has just said, be as substantial as we would hope and expect given our concerns, which I appreciate she says she had heard, would she perhaps consider reconvening the Committee for us to examine those new amendments? We expect that they will substantially alter the way the Bill is currently drafted.

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, I will just follow up on that. It would be helpful if we could get some clarity on what else is coming through, if not that process. It is not the Minister’s fault, but she was given a car crash to drive, and we have now got to where we are. Can we please have a little more consultation about the new form of this Bill?

Schools Bill [HL]

Debate between Baroness Chapman of Darlington and Lord Addington

Committee stage & Lords Hansard - Part 1
Monday 13th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, it is really something for me to say that I agree with most of the noble Lords opposite on this. It is a very odd Bill and a very odd process that we are going through today.

One question that comes to mind when we look at all these amendments is this: could the Minister give us a rough idea where the Minister’s power to make a decision without consultation has been increased or decreased? If there is anywhere that that power has been decreased, I would be very glad to hear about it. But if it is only the case that “We will make something without going through a consultation process”, surely that shows up one of the major flaws in the Bill.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I echo the comments that have been made in support of my earlier intervention. It seems extraordinary that we are grouping these amendments together. I have not been in this House for too long but my understanding is that this is quite unusual.

One example is government Amendment 148, introducing the new offence. One of the jobs I have had was shadow Justice Minister, and I know that something like this would have been subject to a lengthy debate in and of itself were it part of a Bill that the justice team was proposing. I refer noble Lords to paragraph 1(3)(a) of new Schedule A1, as introduced by Amendment 148, about new childcare and behaviour orders. I think these are a very good idea; if you are found to have been running an illegal school, there should be restrictions on what you are able to do in future. We are not arguing with the principle of that, but paragraph 1(3) of the new schedule says:

“An education and childcare behaviour order is an order which, for the purpose mentioned in sub-paragraph (2) … requires the defendant to do anything specified in the order”.


I cannot find anywhere—perhaps the Minister could direct me, because it is not impossible that I have missed it—an example of what is specified in the order. That is a very broad definition that gives courts enormous freedom. I would like to understand better what Ministers have in mind for courts to be able to do. That is just one example of where this really does not fit with some of the other issues that we have just been debating regarding secure academies and charitable purposes.

I would like a commitment from the Minister that, should there be further government amendments that are not minor or technical—there is no way that you could describe this amendment as either—she will ensure that they are tabled in a timely manner and in a way that facilitates consideration in your Lordships’ House. I feel that we are not sufficiently able to do our job as well as we would like today, given the way that this has been done.

I echo the comments from the noble Baroness, Lady Garden, about secure schools, from my noble friend Lord Knight about the independence of trustees, and from the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, on charitable purposes.

To be positive towards the Minister, I very much welcome the tone of the comments that she made at the end of our deliberations last Wednesday, when she said she would reflect and listen very hard to what the House was telling her. I wonder if there is anything she can say today, before we embark on subsequent groups of amendments, that we would find useful about how far she has got with those deliberations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Addington (LD)]

My Lords, it is something running through this debate; there has been discussion on it. I hope we can find this out. I assumed that the Minister would have been briefed.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

The Government are in a bit of trouble here. I have not previously sat through a debate where there has been no support at all for what the Government are trying to do. I do not see how the Bill can leave this House intact. It is becoming quite urgent for the Minister to share with us the Government’s intentions around it. I appreciate that may not be possible today, but on Wednesday we should have some indication of how the Government intend to respond. This is getting repetitive and very frustrating. Deep concerns have come up through this discussion that demonstrate again the failure of the Government to engage with academies, particularly on their approach.

My noble friend Lord Knight makes very sensible suggestions about the appointment of trustees, which highlights the issues around remuneration. We get the impression that the Government have not thought this through sufficiently. He rightly highlights the dangers of a gang of usual suspects taking roles—although he did not rule out being one himself. This makes us all realise, the Bill being as it is, that none of us has the first idea where the Government will take us. This is not a sustainable position for the Government to put the Minister in day after day as we go through Committee.

The Bill is muddled and rushed and has not benefited from the regulatory review. We do not understand the haste. There is no clarity about how all this will work in practice. The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, summed it up really well. She said there was no strategic framework and no detail, and that it does not reflect the White Paper. I am afraid that is where we find ourselves. Several noble Lords have proposed a delay. It would appear a justifiable proposal at this stage, given everything we have heard. It would be in the Government’s interest—perhaps not today but on Wednesday, before we go much further—if we could have some indication about what they are going to do about the fact that they clearly will not have sufficient support to get the Bill through as drafted.