Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Cass and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 13th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

I am still not sure what a person is supposed to do if they cannot access a doctor who is in possession of the full information. If the GP, for example, has a conscientious objection, that potentially puts a hurdle in that will stop them being able to move on to the next stage—they will have to cast around to find a doctor who can have that full discussion. I would have thought that the proponents of the Bill would not want that to happen.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I completely understand what the noble Baroness is saying. Suppose you cannot find a doctor with that information about you—the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, is not talking about the sorts of cases that many noble Lords were talking about, where, by raising it, you are leading to a situation where somebody might be persuaded when they otherwise would not—the answer would be that you would have to consent to all your records being given to a doctor with whom you could have the conversation.

Noble Lords should remember that Clause 5(6) says:

“A registered medical practitioner who is unwilling or unable to conduct the preliminary discussion mentioned under subsection (3) is not required to refer the person to another medical practitioner but must ensure that the person is directed to where they can obtain information and have the preliminary discussion”.


So you can get assistance from a doctor who is not willing to have the discussion. The noble Baroness is absolutely right that, in order to have the discussion, the doctor has to have all the information I referred to. If no doctor in possession of that is willing then you will have to consent to it being given to somebody else—and a patient can consent to their records being given to another doctor.

I turn to the position for those with a disability and, in particular, will deal with the point so powerfully raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton. My Amendment 548A would require that anybody providing a relevant activity under the Bill—new subsection (8) defines “relevant activity” as including “conducting a preliminary discussion”—must not carry out that relevant activity unless the person seeking assistance has an “independent advocate”.

The amendment says that

“‘qualifying person’ means … a person with a mental disorder (as defined by section 1(2) of the Mental Health Act 1983) … a person who (in the absence of support) would experience substantial difficulty in doing one or more of the following … understanding relevant information … retaining that information … using or weighing that information as part of the process of making relevant decisions, or … communicating their views, wishes or feelings”.

Where there is to be a preliminary discussion, the person has to be accompanied by an independent advocate, unless—this is in new subsection (3) to be inserted by the amendment—the person

“seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they do not want an independent advocate, or … where the relevant activity is conducting a preliminary discussion, the person seeking assistance informs the relevant person that they are content for the preliminary discussion to be conducted without them having an independent advocate”.

What the sponsor of the Bill is aiming at there is as follows. If there is any question about one’s ability to process information—what the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, said about the suggestibility of people with Down syndrome is incredibly resonant—I would envisage the position to be that you have to have an independent advocate but you may not need to have one if it is known to the doctor, or if it becomes apparent, that a family member would be adequate. That would be a reason for not having an independent advocate. But, if there is no family member—for example, if the person suffering from a disability has no parents, siblings or whatever—there has to be an independent advocate.

It may be that the area I should focus on in the amendment on independent advocates is this: you can say no to the need for an independent advocate, maybe because you have nobody else, but is that too risky? I need to consider that, given the point on suggestibility raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Monckton, and Mr Ross of the Down syndrome advisory policy group, whom I have discussed that with.

The points made about people with a learning disability are, I hope, addressed in my amendments on an independent advocate. Ultimately, where there may be no family, the independent advocate has to be the rock-bottom protection.

I move on from that to children. I remind noble Lords that, as the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, made clear, Clause 6 says:

“No registered medical practitioner or other health professional shall raise the subject of the provision of assistance in accordance with this Act with a person under the age of 18”.


It cannot be raised, and I completely stand by that. What happens if it or something like it is raised by a person who is under 18? I found what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, said, to be resonant and insightful. You have to deal with it in a sensible way. You cannot just say, “I’m afraid I can’t talk about that. That’s the end of it”. You have to treat the person with a degree of maturity.

The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, supported Amendment 211, in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Rook, which says:

“If a person under the age of 18 raises the subject of the provision of assistance under this Act, the medical practitioner must refuse to discuss the subject and shall inform the person that such assistance is not available to individuals under the age of 18”.


I am sure that the medical practitioner should say that it is not available to persons under the age of 18, but I am not sure that it would be wise for the Bill to prescribe that no further discussion is appropriate—particularly for 17 year-olds, who are often quite perceptive. The idea that you cannot have any discussion about this is just not practical or sensible and it would drive people to other sources, which may be more dangerous.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Cass and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 27th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise. I will talk about it in group 3.

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

Long speeches are unpopular at the best of times, but particularly as I now stand between noble Lords and lunch, so I will try not to make one. It has been a very useful group. We have had a lot of discussion about the appointment process, transparency, conflict of interest and how we ensure public confidence in the commissioner. I think we have reached a conclusion on that—one which may not satisfy everybody, but we have come to a place on it.

Beyond that, a lot of the concern has been about things that fall through the cracks, such as my noble friend Lady Freeman’s concerns about patient information, data, risks and patterns in care homes, and family involvement, which is important. My reflection is that I accept the noble and learned Lord’s view that we do not need to separate a delivery and a monitoring role, but it still seems as if the assisted dying commissioner, even acting with the greatest integrity, needs eyes in the back of his or her head to pick up on issues such as local fluctuations or other aspects of concern. I look forward to hearing about other ways in which things are going to be monitored carefully, whether by the CQC or NHS England, as the noble and learned Lord suggested, so that we can be reassured on those matters. With that, I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 122.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Cass and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 6th February 2026 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

I would never come at the noble and learned Lord, for whom I have the greatest respect. We de facto have to make changes to the Mental Capacity Act in the application of this, because, where a person does not have capacity, you make a best interests decision, but, clearly, we are not doing that in this case, so we are already deviating from how the Mental Capacity Act would work normally in relation to medical procedures. Where you think the medical procedure is the right thing, either the patient makes that decision or someone else would make it for them in their best interest, so we are already deviating.

Secondly, people will be trained specifically to carry out this work, so we have four years to train people to do this appropriately. I do not think slightly different training in this setting, compared to capacity in other situations, would be too burdensome for practitioners.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

On the Act not applying, the noble Baroness is absolutely right that best interests never come into it, because if the patient does not have capacity, that is the end of the matter and they cannot have an assisted death. It is worth pointing out that the Bill says:

“In this Act, references to a person having capacity are to be read in accordance with the Mental Capacity Act 2005”.


All this Bill is incorporating is the reference to capacity, not the second half of the Mental Capacity Act, which sets out what happens if you do not have capacity.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Cass and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 23rd January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

That was the very thought going through my mind as I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Harper, and the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. They just made the same speeches again. On the point that he is making, the question of why is worth asking for two reasons: first, it might go to the question of coercion; and, secondly, it might throw up something that can be remedied, but, in the example I gave about loneliness, it may well be that meeting an organisation in those circumstances is simply not enough and does not change the person’s view. That is why I say that autonomy, rather than parsing the reasons, is the right course. In those circumstances, I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

May I just correct something? The noble and learned Lord said that I wanted it to be only things that doctors can measure. It is not so much about things that doctors can measure. I was saying that it is about whether it is plausible—a doctor should have good judgment of this—that the distress the person is experiencing is in any way related to the illness with which they have been diagnosed. There is a subtle but significant difference because that is what helps you distinguish between it being that or coercion.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I will think about what the noble Baroness said. Perhaps it is my fault for not getting it. I will not write, but I will talk to her and listen to what she says.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill

Debate between Baroness Cass and Lord Falconer of Thoroton

Committee stage
Friday 5th December 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Cass (CB)]

My Lords, as Sarah-Jayne Blakemore has been widely referred to, it might be useful to directly quote her. She said:

“Most of these age cutoffs have not been based on what we know about brain development, because they were decided way before we knew anything about how the brain develops during adolescence. So what I would say is that those kinds of decisions about age cutoffs”—


she is referring to the various age cut-offs for drinking, marriage and so on—

“should incorporate the new knowledge about brain development during adolescence. On the other hand, this is a question I’m asked often, I don’t think the neuroscience can provide an age for you. We can’t say, ‘Oh, the neuroscience shows that the brain becomes adult at age 18 or 24’ or whatever it might be. It’s much more complex than that”.

She goes on to describe how different brain regions develop and mature at different rates, and to talk about the individual differences in the speed of brain development:

“So what I would say is that what we know from neuroscience is the kind of age range, the very broad age range when the brain becomes mature and adult. And that’s much later than 18, between 20s and 30s for most people. So of course that cannot generate an age at which you become legally adult”.

That is what Sarah-Jayne Blakemore has said. On that basis, I support the suggestion from the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, that, between the ages of 18 and 25, there should be enhanced and careful assessment, taking account of that perspective.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

I apologise for interrupting at this stage. This has been a very good debate, and it might be helpful if I indicate what my position in relation to this is. The thinking behind 18 is that that is the age at which you can make your own decisions about medical care. If you are suffering from a terminal illness, you can decide at 18 whether you want to withdraw treatment, for example, or what the treatment should be.

In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, we were aware of the different views about when your brain and maturity develop, and what the noble Baroness, Lady Cass, said is absolutely correct—she read Sarah-Jayne Blakemore’s view—in that these age cut-offs that the law imposes generally are not based upon a close study of neurology; they are the law’s attempt to reflect maturity. I am indeed very aware of the fact that if you are 18, you may be more emotionally impulsive and more easily influenced than somebody of 25, 24 or 23. Equally, anybody who has had contact with people who are young and terminally ill will have found that some 18 year-olds are incredibly thoughtful and mature and some are not, for obvious reasons.

I am very influenced by the fact that I have been listening to people expressing real concern about this issue in this House. I still think 18 is probably the right age, but I am very influenced by what the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay and Lady Cass, have said: that maybe the answer is some assurance that there is a more intense assessment for people aged between 18 and 25. The Bill says that you can have an assisted death only if you have

“a clear, settled and informed wish to end”

your life, and it is being done voluntarily. How can we be sure about those aged between 18 and 25? Two doctors and a panel have to make the decision, but some additional thing might be required.

We are slightly going around in circles again and repeating ourselves, so I suggest that I talk in particular to the noble Baronesses, Lady Cass and Lady Finlay, and that we come back on Report and see whether we need a more thorough assessment for people aged between 18 and 25—although I am not saying I am going to change the age of 18. That is broadly my position.